Best type of floorboard nails?

[Me!]

Does anybody have any suggestions about the best size and type of nails to use to fix down floorboards please?
I'm laying a complete new floor made of 6" wide T&G reclaimed pine on joists that are close to level, but not quite. So, to hold the boards tight should I use annular ring nails, or would I be OK with cut nails or just bright ovals? I guess about 3" is a good length to use?
Thank you for any help or guidance.

 

[CHRIS]

Are you going to secret nail as they are T and G? if so get down to HSS or Speedy hire and get a Portanailer also get the proper nails that come with it. (£50 for the weekend)

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/58172/Hand-Tools/Flooring-Tools/Porta-Nailer-Portable-Flooring-Nailer

They are very good as you dont have to punch the nails as it sets them into the tounge, you can also change the shoe so you can face nail the boards when you get to the edge of the room. If the floor is unlevel when you stand on the area to be nailed it should bend enough to flex onto the joist, if not get some of the broadfix wedges (like using thin furing strips but about 1000 time quicker), you could drill and screw every fixing if the tounge is long enough if you want to be able to take the floor up in the future but this will take ages

http://www.multifixings.com/categorysub.asp?scid=152&catid=1

 

[another_richard]

Chris,

I suppose it depends on the date of your house.

I used 2" cut nails on the floor I had to patch up as the rest of the floors in the house (Victorian) contain them.

I have found that whoever patched up the floor before used a combination of screws and all types of nails.

Be aware of the ceiling below as excessive hammering might cause cracking etc.

 

[CHRIS]

I agree if you are fixing a patch of floor but laying a complete new T and G one over a whole room (subject to what CO says if they are involved) stops the draughts as well which is nice. I used reclaimed boards with no T and G to fix a patch upstairs using brass screws for access to pipe and cut nails on the others. but used secret over the whole new floor downstairs as it was a mix of concrete, 60s pine and chip board which was replaced completely with a solid T and G one.

I would look to what wood is from the best source rather than what was in place before if there is no Listed building consent etc, also make sure you stack it in the house for a few weeks prior to fitting as it could go bad if the 6inch boards decide to curl up at the edges (I have seen it happen and is not nice)

The Portanailer is good as it directs the nail in straight and if using upstairs makes for less damage

 

[Me!]

Thank you for that. I hadn't considered secret nailing, but I have now just looked it up in a previous post on the forum and it suggests that secret nailing T&G is different from ordinary T&G in the shape of the tongue. I've just got the ordinary stuff so does this mean I can't do it? Also, as the boards a 6" wide, is nailing down just one side of each of them really enough to fix them properly? I had assumed I'd be putting at least two nails through each board into each joist, or is that the wrong thing to do as it may cause the board to crack if it shrinks? They have been stacked in the next room for a few weeks to acclimatise, but as the room they are going in is a bathroom there will obviously be damp around.

 

[CHRIS]

You should be ok using a nailer with the normal T and G as it just presses into the lip above the tounge and when you hit the head with the supplied mallet it just fires the nail in at 45deg into the joist.

I used various width boards but I face nailed as well into the joists just to get them well and truly fixed. First I marked on the wall at each side of the room the centre of the joist then I fitted the boards first by just secret nailing, then I run a stringline between the marks on the wall and went back and face nailed the boards along the line so I hit the centre of the joists. I left a 15mm gap around the edge as it was in a kitchen and if I spang a leak It should be ok. I used OSMO oil as well which looks very nice now but I dont know how it would do in a bathroom.

 

[Nigel Watts]

Cut nails are certainly better than wire ones. The length will depend on a number of factors includingthe thickness of the board and the degree of flexing that is likely to occur in the joist. Nails that are too short have a nasty habit of working their way up again as the board flxes over time.

Where boards lie over major pipe runs I prefer to use screws. This makes it easier to take them up again if needed.

 

[Toby Newell]

Unfortunately I use several kilos of fixings each year I am a French polisher and floor sander and although I particularly loathe it have too much experience in fixing floor boards.

Nails = Cut brads, 50mm, 60mm or 65mm, if your joists are uneven or slightly worm eaten go for 65mm, 75mm is overkill and may be hard to drive home (you may need packing shims) I have found the black oily carbon steel ones to be slightly sharper and stronger than the shiny galvanised ones and they go in easier. Cons are they can produce iron stains if they get wet.

Screws = (Hi Nigel, how's the floor?) I would follow Nigel's advice, aesthetically you could go for traditional flat heads (like Nigel's if I remember rightly) although I have found modern screws although expensive are quite amazingly sophisticated pieces of engineering and far superior. I use SPAX and RIESSER German screws, they are amazing, I use 4 x 50mm, 4 x 60mm and 5 x 75mm if I cannot get a clean fix to a damaged joist. You will need a decent drill to drive the 5 x 75's and I prefer the torx (T-star) heads as your wrist will dislocate long before the drill bit slips.

Oval wire nails are usefull at 65mm for pinning at the ends where a cut brad or screw would split the wood but thesescannot be used over the whole floor as they are not strong enough to stop the wood from warping or pulling through and coming loose.

Secret nailing would be the way to go. Face nailing is only required on very frisky wood like oak which loves to move and wide boards. If however your subfloor is quite damp (earth under a cottage for eg) then face nailing them will reduce the amount of cupping.

Toby Newell

 

[Toby Newell]

Make that 5x80mm nm

 

[Me!]

Thank you for all the info.
The floor is now going down very nicely with 65mm cut nails which seem to grip very well. I was worried they might split the timber when I saw the size of them, but they are fine. And that got me thinking.... Cut nails don't have a point, just a taper down to a blunt end. Years ago, somebody told me that blunting the point on an ordinary wire nail before using it was a good trick to stop it splitting the wood. At the time I thought he was mad, but is there something in it?

 

[Nigel Watts]

Hi Toby - good to hear from you. The floor you polished for me still looks great and the room is fully decorated now. I have tried to take some pics of it but they havn't come out too well. I have used a very dark green wallpaper and painted the woodwork in imitation oak. The result is a deep Victorian gloom - just what I was aiming for!

I had a slight mishap when some limewater leaked under my protective polythene when repairing some plasterwork and it produced a nasty white patch. However I managed to remove it using a homemade polish reviver (recipe found in a book on furniture restoration) comprising, from memory, linseed oil, turps and meths.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

Cut nails don't have a point, just a taper down to a blunt end. Years ago, somebody told me that blunting the point on an ordinary wire nail before using it was a good trick to stop it splitting the wood. At the time I thought he was mad, but is there something in it?

Yes, it really works, especially on fine work like beadings. A sharp point acts to part the wood fibres, pushing them to one side and starting a spilt. Blunting the nail slightly creates an edge which tends to crush / sever the wood fibres it encounters which really does seem to reduce splitting.

More often than not I use a nail gun for any nailing work. These fire in the blunt-ended brads at such high speed that damage to the surrounding wood is negligible. The brads also seem to grip much more strongly than a comparable hammer driven panel pin. I think this is function of the square section of the brad and the accuracy and speed of the insertion into the timber. The lack of splitting makes the nail gun a winner for things like secret nailing through the tongues of softwood t&g.

 

[thiambal]

Whatever you do, don't do what a fool did when replacing the floor boards in my lounge. He fixed them with annular wire nails and you cannot, but cannot get them back up in one piece. A crow bar failed to do anything but wreck and board, the nail did not shift a jot!

 

[middi]

I hate floorboard nails, especially the " secret nails" version.

Countersink the tongue at 45deg. and screw the boards down.

You can take them apart quite easy if you have to.

 

[c r]

ditto to what thiambal said- its a horrible feeling, a lost cause painstakingly trying to save floorboards previously bodged with those type of flat-round headed construction nails...

has anyone got experience of using nail gun for re-fixing old plain jane standard (non-tounge&groove) floorboards, rather than using traditional 'cut-clasp' fixings. im concerned about damaging the ceilings below in my victorian terraced house, and have got a lot of boards to lay back down again on the joists. any experience of which gun&nail type- do you think say a 60mm brad would be effective over time??? thank you

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

I've used my air nailer to replace both t&g and square edge floor boards. Very successful. The lack of impact vibration compared to using a hammer is very marked - important with those old lath & plaster ceilings downstairs. So much faster, too.

I used 65mm nails, 15 gauge . These don't have the holding power of the old-fangled cut nails, but I compensated for that by using more of them. I'd dovetail them in pairs if I felt it necessary. The nail heads sink in and are barely visible - that could be good or bad depending on how purist you're being.

I've not tried a larger nailer gun, but I imagine that would overcome some of my reservations about the holding power of the 15 gauge nails, especially if ring shanked nails were used. (though I agree with your comments about the difficulty of future removal)