Bead and Butt Board Bafflement

[Ian Bond]

Hoping someone can help me out here...

I've been searching for the right kind of T&G boarding to cover my bathroom wall, and have had no luck.

A Google for 'Bead and Butt' returned some frankly eye-watering results :shock:

The only type of moulding that the timber merchants seem able to offer me is this:

Trouble is, the Vee shape around the beading. The original boards I've seen don't seem to have this.

Can anyone point me to either a supplier of the correct moulding, or a picture of the right shape so I can get a cutter made?

The second problem is length. I'll go metric for simplification, although it pains me! I need pieces 2.7 metres long, so I can avoid horrid joints, but the timber merchants are telling me they can only get 4.8m lengths - lot of waste.

I few weeks ago I thought I'd got the ideal moulding. Swiftwood
had a pic on their website of the bead without the vee - but they've gone!

Ta very much,

Ian

 

[dandrew]

Bead butt (and bead flush) are types of mouldings used on door panels in period joinery.

The picture you posted would be called TG & V - tongued, grooved with a V-bead. Ideally you'd want TG & B - tongued, grooved witha bead (but not a V, as there is also one at the grooved end if you look carefully).

The easiest way to get what you want would be to buy standard T & G then hand bead the face side next to the tongue with an old-fashioned side bead moulding plane. These are readily available from antique tool dealers which you can find on the www - try Toolbazaar, Tony Murland or Ray Iles. Side bead planes are the most common kind of joiners moulding plane and you should be able to get one for about 6 or 7 quid. They come in varying sizes which indicate the width of the bead in eigths of an inch - 1, 2, 3 etc.

You will produce a small narrow groove with a flat base (called a quirk) on the far side of the bead, but if you do not cut the bead too deeply this should not be too objectionable to you.

Let us know how you get on.

David

 

[Penners]

I'd be very surprised if you can't find beaded T & G (with or without the vee) softwood matchboard at most decent timber merchants.

Or, the following are specialist companies in wood mouldings, who should be able to direct you to their stockists:

http://www.richardburbidge.co.uk/rburbidge-38

http://www.wintherbrowne.co.uk/products.asp

As regards your length requirements, keep in mind that softwod is invariably sold in metric lengths divisible by 3. For example, 1.8m, 2.1m, 2.4m and so on. But this is, of course, dependent upon what any individual seller has in stock, and whether he's prepared to cut longer lengths down for you.

Those who are prepared to cut will often expect you to pay for any remaining length under 1.8m.

 

[Ian Bond]

ta for the rapid replies.

I've honestly tried every supplier in the area and search t'web. But it's all stocked as the TGV bead with the vee in it. Apart from vanishing Swiftwood, bah!

I've been in a place in Keighley today, and they told me they'd need to make a cutter for it. That's £75, plus timber, plus labour, plus delivery.

I'll have a look at the hand planing route - I've got 50 lengths of 2.7m to do so that should keep me out of mischief for the afternoon!!!

Many thanks again, I will return with either the supplier, or the DIY'd moulding pics.

Ian

 

[GK]

I think I know what you mean - you want a straight side to the bead bit. Don't know what it's called.

I made some oak doors with just the bead I think you want. I moulded the groove, then cut the tongue to fit, then put the board upright against a cutter like this one:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=20761&name=690090&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=0

The tongue end goes on the spindle table.

Obviously you have to use one of the end rounds, on my cutter variation the end flat bit (land?) had almost no width and isn't really noticeable as a flat in the bottom.

 

[Ian Bond]

Thanks GK.

You'd think a timber merchant could manage it without too much trouble?!

Unfortunately I don't have the technology, so I may be going down the moulding plane route.

 

[chuckey]

To simplify the wood work, I would plane the V bit off then put the groove back in. If you search around you should be able to get a 1/4" router for < £50 complete with a selection of cutters. FWIW I made my own router beading cutter that did the quirk at the same time - exact match for my victorian T & G boarding.
Frank

 

[Penners]

the spindle table.

Dear Father Christmas

Please bring me a spindle moulder and a power feed for same.

 

[Moo]

the spindle table.

Dear Father Christmas

Please bring me a spindle moulder and a power feed for same.

cc to Mrs Penrose.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

If I understand rightly you want a bead with a square shoulder rather than a vee, with a corresponding square shoulder on the adjoining plank.

With the amount you want to produce it would be worth while investing in a router and mounting it in a router table - this could be a simple home-made job.

You'll find all the cutters you need at Wealden Tool Co

http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Beading_Large_70.html

Since you'll probably have to get your stock machined to order it shouldn't be too hard to convince a merchant to run 3.0 metre lengths. Alternatively, using your new routing facility, you could lap joint lengths together to maximise your yield from 4.8m stock. Assuming the panelling will be painted, of course.

 

[Ian Bond]

Thanks again all. Much appreciated and very helpful.

I've got a router, so will have a look into a getting a router table and suitable cutters.

Still disappointed (though not entirely surprised) that the moulding I want isn't available ex stock from the merchants.

You'd think they'd have such a simple and traditional cutter already. And not try and charge me £75 to make one!!!!!

 

[GK]

Well, all the cutters I used were off-the-shelf.

If we are talking about machining the profile in a small batch, Part of the difficulty is the way that the timber has to be presented to the cutters. Perhaps you are thinking that the end bead and toungue would be cut from the face with one cutter. In fact, a tongue and groove is cut with a matching pair of cutters, this ensures that the tongue will actually fit the groove. The board travels along the table flat and each edge is machined - two passes and a change of tooling.

Then using the concave cutter, 3mm radius or so, the tongue edge is machined on the face with the board against the fence. This gives the bead you want. If you want the bead to be on both edges, that's two more passes with another change of tooling.

So - four passes per board - you really need to be machining quite a quantity to make it economic, it's quite easy to spend an hour of machine setting time for a few minutes of cutting.

A plough plane might be quicker


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[Ian Bond]

Hi GK

Ta for that - very useful drawing, saved for reference!!!

I agree that the cutters are available off the shelf- just puzzled as to why the merchants always say they need to 'make' a new cutter. Hmmm.

Would I need to fit my router to a special table, in order to use the bead cutters?

As I only need 50 lengths of 3yds or so, I think it will be easier to get the boards done for me. It seems a lot to do by hand with a moulding plane. I will try Eden Garden Antiques near Burton In Kendal - they supplied me Pitch Pine planks for floor repairs. I think they may also do mouldings, so I'll ask...

The 'big' timber merchants seems to have standardized mouldings. Completely understandable on economic grounds, just a pity that some of the moulding are not quite right.

 

[Penners]

I've got a router, so will have a look into a getting a router table

This is a very cheap one, but if you only have occasional limited use...

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=21382&name=router+table&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=0

and suitable cutters

The same people have a wide selection at all quality levels. Here's a low-priced set

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=22803&name=router+bits&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=0

 

[Ian Bond]

Thanks Penners.

May be worth investing in a table, so I can get more use out of the router.

So far I've used it for cutting simple housings and rebates, but not much else. It's tricky to use 'free hand' for very long pieces (although I've done it, crawling along the floor!!) and I'm not confident of doing 50+ boards that way - may be a lot easier with a table.

I'll try and get hold of some old moulding planes too - could be good fun doing it the proper (hard) way for smaller bits and pieces. There's some lovely old planes on those websites mentioned by dandrew

Toolbazaar, Tony Murland or Ray Iles

 

[GK]

Don't let me put you off buying a router table but you will need good firm support either side to maintain 2.7m boards in line with the table.

Consider this: Get 3 good bits of straight softwood 3m long. Fix them together as I have drawn and then screw to a bench.

Drop the standard floorboard onto the ledge, pin it along the length, run Wealden bearing guided cutter right along.

Repeat 50 times.


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[Ian Bond]

Thanks GK, that diagram clearly shows what to do...

I see what you mean about the table - would be rather precarious with long boards!!!

I've got 2 portable workbenches so could probably cramp the guidetimbers to them to support the board, and run the router along.

I'll have a go if I can't get someone to cut it for me at a reasonable price.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Penners]

It's tricky to use 'free hand' for very long pieces (although I've done it, crawling along the floor!!) and I'm not confident of doing 50+ boards that way - may be a lot easier with a table.

Yes, a table helps immensely with that sort of job.

For that number of boards you'll also make the job much easier if you make yourself a 'spring' to hold the workpiece against the table's fence. Then all you have to do is push the board through.

If you want more detailed info about this, PM me.

 

[Ian Bond]

Thanks for that Penners.

And thanks everyone for your help with this - I have plenty of ideas to work on, having almost given up!

 

[chuckey]

The way I did it was to hold the board edge up in the work mate (whoops), so its like GKs sketch a bit. Then with a side guard (at 90 deg to the base) on the routerguard to bead side), just run down the edge of the board. The distance, board edge to bead is set by the protrusion of the bit, and the depth of the bead by the distance of the side guard from the routers centre.
Most importent check your router carefully to make sure the cutter centre is in the centre of the base. Set the guard up for the final depth. Then with a piece of shim (piece of PVC flooring tile?)on it, will result in the first cut being 1 1/2 mm shallow, remove it for a finishing cut. Its safer for the guard to be on the bead side, you can't slip and cut too deep,but it might get in way. Do any experimenting on the end of your boards, you can then cut then of and only waste 3/4" of length.
Frank