Bay window / sash windows to be reinstated

[West Green]

Hi newbie here, great site, very informative. I live in a Victorian Terrace that unfortunately has had the front ruined, in virtually every way possible. 1. Pebbledash 2. casement windows 3. and worst of all it's had the bay window removed. Despite numerous searches on the internet I've had trouble finding a builder who specialises in this type of work, with quotes varying by up to 100% to reinstate the bay, or refusals because it's too risky to the stucture of the house. Can anyone recommend a builder in North London/ London that has completed this type of work? Any help appreciated
Thanks, West Green

 

[Feltwell]

Sorry, no recommendations, but good luck in getting it done. There are joinery companies out there that will do such work - my neighbours existing bay was completely renewed about 8 years ago, cost around £3500 I believe.

Someone in the last few months did put a link up on here to a company that I believe was London based that specialise in removing pebbledash etc. May be worth contacting them not just for a quote to get rid of your pebbledash but also to ask if they know of anyone for your bay, as if they do that kind of work they will probably have been on other jobs where original joinery is being reinstated.

Help everyone, who put the link up?

 

[countrycott]

Hi West Green, (from a fellow newbie.)

Have you seen the photo posted into my 'semi-detached cottage' thread?

Good luck with your project, sounds like a big job.

 

[West Green]

Gulp - the more I look into the bigger it sounds, most of the quotes have mentioned that they'de have to possibly replace the lintel/ and therefore there are risks to the structuure of the whole building if it's not done properly - hence the reason for trying to find someone who has done the job before. I've spokeb to a lot of builders who say they can do it, but the quotes have varied so wildly that I'm not really sure of the true cost. My house looks like one of the picture in the pebbledash thread, so it would seem there was an (unfortunate) fashion for doing this type of work. Thanks for the replies.

 

[West Green]

Hi Countrycott
Just seen the picture - ouch, know I know why you said that. Pretty much what's happened to my house, but (and I hope you believe this) yours actually looks nicer! Good luck as well
West Green

 

[AMc]

Without a picture it's hard to say but I thought the structural work was usually required to remove the bay, not reinstate it?
If a load bearing bay existed before and was replaced with a flat front then a new lintel would be put in place to support the wall and roof above it at that time. This would still do its job if the bay were reinstated as a self supporting structure tied to the existing brick work.
Of course when you uncover the existing lintel it may be too small, in the wrong place, damaged, rotten etc. It's possible the builders are simply covering that eventuality upfront and preparing you for the worst.

Removing or replacing a lintel isn't a complicated job, any competent company calling themselves a builder should be able to do it with care and enough acro props but you're wise to go carefully.

I'm afraid I can't recommend a builder for the work but you really need a local recommendation. Try knocking on the doors of recently renovated houses like yours.

I would also contact your local building control office and speak to them about what permission (if any) you need for the work. You may need to submit basic plans. They may be able to informally put you in touch with some local builders though they won't be able to recommend anyone.

 

[West Green]

Hi AMC - thanks very much. The bay was removed more than 15 years ago, but as there was no planning appication made with the council, we'll never know the reason wht? As you say, I think the builders are painting a worst case scenario, with "rotten" or "beam too short" both being mentioned. As a novice this is rather off putting, especially when the whole safety of your house is at stake. On the other hand, 2 other builders have said "no problem, easy job" - then you wonder who is right! Council say it's not a problem to put the bay back, no consent required, but as you say I think I'll get someone in to check it first and get some plans. Thanks again

 

[AMc]

The work probably didn't need planning approval but should probably have had building control approval. These two depts. do related jobs in the local council but they're not the same - check with Building Control if any paperwork exists for your property.

As I've had a chunk of wall removed and a 6m steel beam inserted recently I understand your fear

The way this was approached was
- a line of acro props were set up underneath the the floor joists with scaffold boards on top and were cranked up until they were supporting the floor above.
- the beam was moved into place next to the wall
- a series of slots were cut into the brick above the beam position
- "Strong boys" were put into the slots over the beam and more acro props were cranked up to hold them. (the strong boy is an arm extending the reach of the prop into the wall - not a very muscular young man.
- at that point the 1st floor was supported internally with props and the wall above was supported externally by the strong boys on the props.
- a section of wall was removed to insert the beam.
- the beam was moved into place, then levelled up and packed out with slate at each end over the pad stones supporting the weight into the rest of the building.
- then the props are cranked down and the lower sections of the wall were removed.
(then I was able to breathe again)

It is very nerve wracking and you need to have confidence in the people doing the work. The props are quite cheap to hire and any builder who has removed a supporting wall i.e. knocking through a lounge/dining room shouldn't be phased by the job. If you need to replace your lintel then the process will probably be similar.

You could (probably) mitigate some of the risk by removing the plaster and pebble dash around the ends of the window to expose the lintel and see what you're dealing with - use your better judgement and don't take advice from the internet if you're in any doubt about this.

If you're in any doubt you might want to consult a structural engineer, they will certainly be able to assess the size of lintel you should have and recommend a replacement if necessary. They will almost certainly want the lintel to be exposed before they can make a judgement, but a phone conversation would probably be a good place to start.

Good luck!

 

[Feltwell]

There is also of course a fair chance that the original beam is still in-situ and in good condition. I'd go for some gentle opening up to see what is there.

 

[countrycott]

West Green, just to be clear, the pic seen on my thread isn't my place, it was just posted as an example of what can happen
and came to mind as appropriate when you were explaining your situation,

I think you're being very brave to tackle the big job of reversing the damage and wish there were more people like you around,
willing to try and put such wrong doing right again!

 

[joinerpaul]

Pebbledashing and a bay window removed would ring alarm bells with me that there have been structural problems and that this was the cheapest solution at the time. I speak as an ex-owner of a pebbledashed property which had a bay window which was falling away- On taking the pebble-dash off the rear elevation, it became obvious that it had been applied to try to stop movement and cracking. It's a mistake to think that it was simply a fad with no purpose, even if it is ugly.
If you've had builders saying that they don't want to do it because of the risk to the structure, and others quoting but the quotes vary wildly, that also seems to fit in with that hypothesis. I'd say, along with one of the previous posters, explore carefully, try and work out exactly what problems you're dealing with, and keep a contingency fund if you decide to go ahead with major works.

 

[JoceAndChris]

On taking the pebble-dash off the rear elevation, it became obvious that it had been applied to try to stop movement and cracking. It's a mistake to think that it was simply a fad with no purpose, even if it is ugly.
I'd say, along with one of the previous posters, explore carefully, try and work out exactly what problems you're dealing with, and keep a contingency fund if you decide to go ahead with major works.

I couldn't agree more. I'm certain that there was some similar rationale behind the decision to cake my house in foul c****t render; it's only subsequently that that has revealed itself to be an error of schoolboy proportions.

What amazes me and makes me :evil: is the following mild comment in my expensive full survey prior to purchase, written by our thoroughly charming surveyor:

"Render can cause problems if it is not maintained well. There are already cracks and unevenness visible particularly to the render around the garden room, which may require attention within the medium term. However, there is no short term requirement for works,, both the masonry paint and rendering were adequate for their purpose at present."

It is with difficulty that I have restrained myself from taking him to task over this one; we wouldn't have bought the house if we'd known about the breathability issues which we now understand.

But perhaps I misunderstand the purpose or usefulness of a full survey.

Anyway, good luck West Green, I sympathise, and especially with the London thing too. Sorry to be negative, but I lived in London for ten years and could not honestly recommend any of the builders we used. Like you we found that quotes would differ by huge margins, with the highest quotes coming from companies that had an office and their name on a van. (But they were the most reputable) A Pole could be had for £80 a day, the work might be of a very high quality but communication would be an issue. In fact, the problem of sourcing good builders who understand historic buildings is so pernicious that next time major work needs doing on the Highgate houses (I'm chair of the Management Committee which makes me reponsible for repair of communal areas ) I'm going to ship in Lincolnshire men and put them up in my flat.

 

[West Green]

The latest news is that a builder came round last week to quote for the job, and came it a very reasonable and by far the cheapest price. He's a Londoner, he says he's done this type of work before and even worked with a stonemason regularly - sounds too good to be true!. I am going to get a structuaral engineer to have a look before I take the plunge. Thanks for the advice, I'll put some pics up if I go ahead.