Attic Room, can I tell if it is original to the house?

[ParsonsJ]

Hello,

I hope this is ok to post here, I have searched and searched google but I can't find an answer that is quite the same situation!

We have recently had an offer accepted on a 4 bed Victorian semi, one of the bedrooms is in the attic. A previous sale fell through as their surveyor raised the issue that the attic room can not be classed as bedroom, therefore I think devaluing the house to a 3 bed plus attic room.

Is there anyway of telling if an attic room is original? If so does this mean that current building regs do not apply so it can be classed a room?

There is a dormer window, which mirrors next door and what looks like an original stair case. It is a semi so I will try and find out if next door has the same, is this enough 'proof' that is it original to the house?

Even with this though if we are to class it as a bedroom do we still need to bring it up to current building regs which I guess are there for a reason but from what I had read may involve replacing all the original doors or installing a sprinkler system, clearly neither option is ideal if this is the case!

While I suppose it does not really matter in a way, as it is obviously a room that can be used, I am concerned we are paying pretty much top price for a 4 bed when it really is only a 3 bed.

Many thanks

Jane

 

[Keith Bowman]

Does the surveyor give reasons for what he is saying? The Victorian house I grew up in had attic bedrooms for the servants. Unfortunately it didn't come equipped with the servants themselves

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm not entirely sure about this but I've read somewhere or been told that building regulations cannot be enforced after four years. Obviously don't take my word for this but I'd have thought your solicitor would be able to advise you regarding any liabilities you may be taking on with this house.

However, I can confirm that we have rooms in our attic that, if not original to the house, are certainly a few hundred years old and they are served by the most awkward and restricted stairs that you could imagine (a ladder would probably be safer!) and would most certainly not meet any current building regulations. Fortunately, building regulations are not applied retrospectively. If they were, then period properties up and down the land would be being ripped to pieces and brought up to date! I certainly don't lose any sleep worrying about a knock on the door from building control! :wink:

It would certainly not be unusual for a Victorian house to have an attic bedroom and I would imagine it should be fairly easy to tell if it is the result of a modern conversion or if it is obviously old. As long as that is the case then I'd guess it would be up to someone else to prove it was not original in case of any dispute. It may also be possible to buy an insurance policy to cover for any unknown issues with the house. But, again, discuss the potential liability with your solicitor.

As mentioned above, perhaps you find out exactly why the previous solicitor said it could not be classed as a 4th bedroom?

As for whether the legitimacy of the attic room should affect the price of the house, that's really a matter for you to decide because there are no 'proper' prices for houses. A house is really only worth what you are prepared to pay for it. On the plus side, a 3-bed house may be in a lower council tax band :wink:

 

[paulb33]

As far as I'm aware, this is common practice. The lawyers are covering their backs, in the event that building regs should have been sought. Ten years ago, we sold a Victorian terrace house with attic room. We couldn't produce a certificate of building regs for it or evidence of when it was built. On the advice of our solicitor, we ended up indemnifying the purchaser for a small fee......and everyone soon forgot about it.
Paul

 

[Me!]

I've been in the same situation as paulb33 with a previous house, and the same solution to the problem. It's all just caused by people trying to cover themselves against future fallout.

 

[Feltwell]

My Victorian house has attic rooms, original to the house, no need to comply with current Building Regs as it's original construction. What I have done (my personal choice) is put radio-linked smoke alarms in, so one on the top floor goes off if any of the others in the house do, and when replacing one dormer window (that was rotten beyond salvation) I changed the construction of it slightly so the new one would be easier to get out of and onto a ladder in the event of fire.

As to if your rooms are original or not:-

- Compare to Neighbour's house as you say
- The staircase is usually the biggest giveaway. Is it in a logical position, have any of the middle floor rooms been obviously modified / reduced in size to squeeze it in?
- Is the joinery on the top floor a similar style to the middle and ground floors? No guarantee, but if original then it may well be. My house has "large and grand" skirting and architrave on the reception rooms and hallway on the ground floor, the same style but smaller for the functional ground floor and all the middle floor rooms, and the same style but smaller & cheaper again for the top floor rooms
- Are the doors the same? Again, no guarantee, one of my attic rooms (visible at the top of the stairs) has the same style door as the rest of the house, whereas the back attic room that is more hidden has a very plain & utilitarian planked door.
- Is the dormer single or double glazed? Is it of a similar style to other windows in the house? Whats the window furniture look like?
- What's the construction of the top floor walls? Attic walls often weren't directly over the rooms below due to the restrictions of fitting a room into the roof space, so they had to be of lightweight construction. If lath & plaster then they're old, if plasterboard more likely to be new. Is there a roof void at the apex of the roof, is there a hatch to gain access? If so, poke your head up there and check the ceiling construction, lath & plaster or plasterboard.
- Is there a fireplace up there? Often there wasn't, mine doesn't have any, but if it does then you can pretty much guarantee it's not modern!
- What's the floor construction? Floorboards or modern sheets of chipboard?
- Is there any way to view the roof construction for the dormer? That will be a dead giveaway as to if it's been added later or not

None of the above is a guarantee as of course things like an original single glazed window may have been replaced at some stage, a broken lath & plaster wall may have been stripped and plasterboarded, but taken together it will give you a guide.

As others have said, an indemnity is a popular way to deal with uncertainty, but bear in mind you'll have the same issue when you come to sell. Personally, I'm fairly relaxed about such things! Bear in mind that many surveyors haven't got a clue what they're talking about when it comes to old houses, and that previous surveyor may have only been engaged to do a valuation survey - which is useless beyond a value confirmation, but they will always cover their @rse by putting anything that could remotely affect the value of the house down, even if it's highly unlikely to be of use.

For example - "Attic room may not conform to current Building regulations and hence may not be able to be regarded as a habitable room" - well that's true if it's an original room or a bodged later conversion, but both ways the surveyor is covered and the client can't sue them for over-valuing the house. Such statements make people panic and can easily lead to a sale falling through.

It's rather like our old friend "shows signs of infestation" - well, there is infestation and there is infestation, it would be a rare thing to find any 100+ year old building that hasn't had a bit of furniture beetle ("woodworm") at some point in it's life. "Shows signs of infestation" panics people though.

If you're really not sure then get a full structural survey done, using a surveyor who is experienced in older buildings, and when you engage them specifically ask them to check if the attic rooms are original to the house or not. One tip is to also get them to do a valuation survey - so the structural survey is for your eyes only, the valuation survey is for the mortgage company. A full structural survey is pretty much guaranteed to come up with something to do with damp or decay on any old house that your mortgage company may put a retainer on for - whereas a valuation survey won't. I did this, the extra valuation survey cost very little.

What you will find is that most surveyors are quite happy to have a phone call once you're read their official report, to discuss points in a more "real world" fashion. A bit like the "shows signs of infestation" - I had that, but on a phone call the surveyor was quite happy to say "it's just a bit of old woodworm, looks to be historical and inactive, keep an eye on it but basically don't worry too much about it".

Hope all that helps!

 

[88v8]

My Victorian house ......Hope all that helps!

What an excellent post.

My parents' house sold in 2007 had an attic conversion which clearly was not original, and a rear conservatory-ish from the 1980s that had no PP, but the buyer wanted it, so it proceeded.
Our house sold in 2012 had no paperwork for the garage we built in 1983 - I had thrown it away as irrelevant - in the end I got tired of the fuss and told the buyer to proceed or go away. I suspect that, as has been said, it was just the solicitors messing around.

Found this
http://www.davidwarrenjones.co.uk/planning.htm
which seemed informative until I got to 'all building work whenever undertaken'.
Well, sorry, but bollox.

And since when did the Local Authority have any right to stick its nose into the installation of water tanks?

This, otoh, looks more promising
http://freeconveyancingadvice.co.uk/diy-conveyancing/building-regulations-conveyancing
Read under the heading 'Remedies where work has been carried out without building regulations approval'.

If I were you I'd just buy it if I wanted it.

All this Govt interference....think I'll go and lie down for a while, or perhaps join UKIP and take out a subscription to the Daily Mail.

Ivor

 

[paulb33]

Assuming it hasn't been built in the last few years, it really only becomes an issue when YOU come to sell the house. Punters may be 'spooked' by this stuff. As long as your purchase price is appropriate, I'd like to think we'll still have enough reasonable folks who see past this nonsense.

Of course, lenders are increasingly becoming risk averse....

 

[Flyfisher]

All this Govt interference....think I'll go and lie down for a while, or perhaps join UKIP and take out a subscription to the Daily Mail.

Ivor

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Very tempting isn't it?

Mind you, perhaps all this sort of thing is a good way of filtering out truly sympathetic period property owners. It's probably a good thing if cracks, signs of 'infestation' and leaning walls and floors put off buyers who might be more comfortable in a, well, let's say a more contemporary home.

So much for innocent until proved guilty. If something can't be proved to have been done after the necessary permissions or certifications, how could any action be taken?

But, as mentioned above, a lot can depend on mortgage complications and buyer's nerves and if insurance for such things can be bought for a couple of hundred pounds then it's probably a cheap price for peace of mind.

 

[Penners]

Feltwell's very informative and detailed post above seems to cover just about everything. If you look carefully at the points he has raised, I reckon your should be able to detect whether the attic room is original (or added a long time ago) or much newer. Of course there are no guarantees in this, but there are usually telltale signs.

As he said, probably the most useful investigation would be to try and get a look inside the attic space and compare the structure of the attic room with the structure of the roof. Do the timbers look similar in age? Are the walls lath-and-plaster? Are there any signs of modifications? The appearance of the roof-covering may also be a clue - do the tiles/slates on the dormer look identical to the rest of the roof or not? (Mind you, it's not impossible that - if the dormer was a later addition - they may have re-roofed the whole house when it was fitted).

Out with the magnifying glass, on with the deerstalker - it's time for some detective work! (It's actually rather fun!).

 

[ParsonsJ]

Hello,

Wow, that's great, thanks everyone, really interesting and useful information there, particularly Feltwell. Will definitely help me with how to approach the issue with our surveyor and solicitor.

So the next step will be to get our surveyor out and see what they can give reasons why it may not be original or if is why they can not class it as a bedroom.

Having said all of this, I have absolutely fallen in love with the house, finally found my almost untouched period house so anything the surveyor says will probably make very little difference as to whether I buy it...I shall just ignore the bit when he tells me it is an over priced 3 bed death trap.

Just have to hope I don't need to sell it in the near future!

Thanks again.

Jane

 

[Penners]

Jane - a warning:

Never love anything so much that you're not prepared to do without it...

...except salted caramel ice cream.

That last bit is my addition.

 

[malcolm]

Half the trouble seems to be that solicitors like to string things out so they get paid more. Mine got very excited about a roof light and started insisting it was replaced before sale. I ended up writing him a letter saying I was perfectly happy with a shoddy roof light and to just get on with buying the place. Though my place cost less than the modest area of land underneath would have been worth.

A general rule of thumb seems to be building regs don't enforce things after 10 years. It's not a legal rule so they might if they get upset about something.

Well worth straightening things out now so you don't have the same trouble with buyers solicitors or mortgage companies when you sell it. Can't see the world suddenly becoming less risk averse so you might have even more trouble selling. If you are nearby I can recommend an excellent surveyor whose observations for this place still seem spot on a year later. The indemnity thing might be well worth going for (you or the seller) if there is still a question about whether the attic is modern.

Attics can be deceptive. I thought mine was 1920s but now believe it is very much earlier.

Thanks Feltwell - I've just found a blocked up fireplace in my attic! It seems to have a birds nest inside it.

 

[paulb33]

Mine got very excited about a roof light and started insisting it was replaced before sale. I ended up writing him a letter saying I was perfectly happy with a shoddy roof light and to just get on with buying the place.

Respectfully, if you have to write your conveyancing solicitor a letter, then I suspect you had someone making life difficult....

 

[ParsonsJ]

Well, even if I am not prepared to do without it my mortgage company may well not feel the same, so I may not have much choice with this one, probably a good thing really...

I shall let you know what the outcome is.

 

[Flyfisher]

Half the trouble seems to be that solicitors like to string things out so they get paid more. Mine got very excited about a roof light and started insisting it was replaced before sale. I ended up writing him a letter saying I was perfectly happy with a shoddy roof light and to just get on with buying the place.

I'm not sure about stringing things out, as we've always had a fixed price quotation for our conveyances, but I do think the word 'instruct' is a useful one to bear in mind when dealing with solicitors. You 'instruct' a solicitor and they work for you, and while they should of course inform you of any risks they are not the ones who have to make the final decision and they certainly should not refuse to do anything you choose to do (except anything illegal, naturally).

The only times I've had issues is where solicitors have tried to insist on a 10% deposit on exchange of contracts, which can be a very sizeable amount these days, often requiring a short term bank loan. We have never paid more than 2% deposit on a property, having previously agreed the arrangement with the seller in person. Who was it who said 'everything is negotiable'? :wink:

 

[Penners]

Yes, please do let us know how it goes, Jane. It's always interesting and useful to get feedback.

 

[noj]

A bit OT but check out picture 19 for a non period attic room

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-41542705.html

 

[Flyfisher]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Looks fairly period to me - 1970s sci-fi perhaps?

 

[Penners]

That's clearly the self-destruct command centre, in case the building falls into enemy hands.