Asbestos tiles over damp concrete floor

[samberzina]

Looking for some advice - we are currently renovating our Victorian property and started breaking up the Kitchen floor for some new foundations we need to put it. Unfortunately it appears we have discovered some asbestos tiling under a thin layer of screed which has probably been put on top to encapsulate the tiling. There was a plastic sheet between the tiles and the concrete topping and the tiles are all pretty wet underneath. So now it makes sense why the kitchen walls are all damp as I guess all that trapped moisture is just coming up the adjacent brick walls!

I cannot think of any genius way how to cover these without exacerbating the already existing damp problems so seems like taking up the tiles and dealing with the source of damp is the only way unless someone has any genius solutions / different experience? Also I imagine the floor under the tiles is also concrete so unless we break that out as well, we will carry on having issues with damp?

Many thanks in advance.

 

[Cubist]

Sounds like you're between the devil and the deep blue sea with this one. Come what may it's wise to stop work until you know whether they are indeed asbestos tiles and your local authority can provide all necesserat advice regarding identification and treatment. Sadly, the 'catch 22' for you is either; get rid of the tiles and fix the damp or make them safe in situ and accept that the damp p[roblem will not be beaten. I would urge you to get some good advice from a competent authority before doing either.

 

[malcolm]

Most of my floors are concrete. Water can't get past the concrete very readily but if you give it an easy option to get out it won't go up the walls. For me the easy option has been lowering exterior ground levels and making sure there is about 6 inches of lime pointed brick exposed to the outside that will let water evaporate away to the outside of the wall instead of going up the wall.

It's a pain that walls tend to be painted in waterproof paints or covered in cement inside and outside these days. That's not how they were intended to be. When you have a plastic sheet under the floor and internal walls with emulsion on both sides of an internal wall it gets more awkward. For those making the wall breathable on one side is helpful.

 

[samberzina]

Sounds like you're between the devil and the deep blue sea with this one. Come what may it's wise to stop work until you know whether they are indeed asbestos tiles and your local authority can provide all necesserat advice regarding identification and treatment. Sadly, the 'catch 22' for you is either; get rid of the tiles and fix the damp or make them safe in situ and accept that the damp p[roblem will not be beaten. I would urge you to get some good advice from a competent authority before doing either.

Thank you. We have ordered an asbestos test kit and have covered it all up for now until we find out what it is. We have just spent couple of grand removing asbestos ceilings upstairs so I am not holding my breath hoping it is not asbestos haha.

 

[samberzina]

Most of my floors are concrete. Water can't get past the concrete very readily but if you give it an easy option to get out it won't go up the walls. For me the easy option has been lowering exterior ground levels and making sure there is about 6 inches of lime pointed brick exposed to the outside that will let water evaporate away to the outside of the wall instead of going up the wall.

It's a pain that walls tend to be painted in waterproof paints or covered in cement inside and outside these days. That's not how they were intended to be. When you have a plastic sheet under the floor and internal walls with emulsion on both sides of an internal wall it gets more awkward. For those making the wall breathable on one side is helpful.

Most of our kitchen walls are quite mouldy and damp at the moment. In winter we noticed condensation forming on the floor as well. We hacked off the cement render up to the floor level when we moved in in hopes it might eventually dry out, but I think my main worry is that it is all already sopping wet where we took the floor finish off. Just does not sit right with me to cover it all back up again and seal it in! The area is about 11 sqm in total so we are seriously thinking about ripping out the existing floor and replacing with suspended timber flooring but I imagine it will be pretty costly and we are already running low on money in our reno journey haha! It is a tricky one!

 

[malcolm]

The whole structure will be soaking wet if it's been cement rendered and covered with waterproof stuff everywhere. Walls dry roughly at the rate of an inch a month so it'll take a while for the full height of the wall to dry through a small bit of exposed brickwork. My kitchen walls were green and I was lucky my walls had only been painted on the outside and I could remove the paint. Still had to lower ground levels, fix gutters and drains.

Suspended timber would work if you had good ventilation underneath. In a kitchen you would tend to put floor tiles down and they aren't breathable other than the mortar joints so there will be a limit to the amount of water you can evaporate away from the kitchen floor. Even then it will evaporate into the room which is where you don't want it.

Photos would help.

It might be worth getting rid of the plastic sheet to expose the concrete base and letting it dry. Asbestos isn't too bad when it's wet and local recycling centres often let you leave it there if it's bagged. Airborne asbestos is bad and a good mop up after removal is a good idea. Internet has advice.

 

[Toby Newell]

Looking for some advice - we are currently renovating our Victorian property and started breaking up the Kitchen floor for some new foundations we need to put it. Unfortunately it appears we have discovered some asbestos tiling under a thin layer of screed which has probably been put on top to encapsulate the tiling. There was a plastic sheet between the tiles and the concrete topping and the tiles are all pretty wet underneath. So now it makes sense why the kitchen walls are all damp as I guess all that trapped moisture is just coming up the adjacent brick walls!

I cannot think of any genius way how to cover these without exacerbating the already existing damp problems so seems like taking up the tiles and dealing with the source of damp is the only way unless someone has any genius solutions / different experience? Also I imagine the floor under the tiles is also concrete so unless we break that out as well, we will carry on having issues with damp?

Many thanks in advance.

I would remove. Danger of asbestos is overrated. The guys who got sick used to cut it in factories with powered saws with little or no extraction. It's cheaper to remove yourself, get a tyvek suit with hood, safety specs and half mask or full face respirator, some gloves and booties, still cheaper as you dont pay the 'danger tax'. Mist the area regularly with fresh water from a pump up sprayer. Vacuum carefully (good excuse to buy a Festool CTLMIDI) use an upholstery brush to vacuum the walls, ceiling and all horizontal surfaces. Keep windows and doors shut and tape the doors. If you have a dust extractor then you can keep it running and tape the nozzle to near where you are working. Obviously you will have to pay a licensed company to come and remove the asbestos contaminated material. Use heavy gauge plastic refuse sacks or rubble bags, only a third fill and close tightly with zip tie. You can place several of these in a Timco tyvek heavy duty sack to protect from puncturing.

 

[Lacan07]

I would remove. Danger of asbestos is overrated. The guys who got sick used to cut it in factories with powered saws with little or no extraction. It's cheaper to remove yourself, get a tyvek suit with hood, safety specs and half mask or full face respirator, some gloves and booties, still cheaper as you dont pay the 'danger tax'. Mist the area regularly with fresh water from a pump up sprayer. Vacuum carefully (good excuse to buy a Festool CTLMIDI) use an upholstery brush to vacuum the walls, ceiling and all horizontal surfaces. Keep windows and doors shut and tape the doors. If you have a dust extractor then you can keep it running and tape the nozzle to near where you are working. Obviously you will have to pay a licensed company to come and remove the asbestos contaminated material. Use heavy gauge plastic refuse sacks or rubble bags, only a third fill and close tightly with zip tie. You can place several of these in a Timco tyvek heavy duty sack to protect from puncturing.

Yeah, I'd second Toby's advice above.

I suspect a lot of it is over exaggerated and the industry pretty much aligns with the damp proof guys. I had asbestos floor tiles in my kitchen and paid to have them removed. I wasn't here at the time but my brother was (and the electrician) and they couldn't believe how slack the guy was. I was told there may be traces of asbestos in the glue on the screed underneath but I've never tried to seal it with PVA (which is what they do sometimes) and I've been walking on it ever since. Maybe i should have sealed it but there is a 'pop up' kitchen on there now

I'll be taking the screed floor out eventually in my kitchen but then again it isn't too large a space. That would be my recommendation to you but I appreciate it can be a lot of work and expense.

 

[Toby Newell]

Yeah, I'd second Toby's advice above.

I suspect a lot of it is over exaggerated and the industry pretty much aligns with the damp proof guys. I had asbestos floor tiles in my kitchen and paid to have them removed. I wasn't here at the time but my brother was (and the electrician) and they couldn't believe how slack the guy was. I was told there may be traces of asbestos in the glue on the screed underneath but I've never tried to seal it with PVA (which is what they do sometimes) and I've been walking on it ever since. Maybe i should have sealed it but there is a 'pop up' kitchen on there now

I'll be taking the screed floor out eventually in my kitchen but then again it isn't too large a space. That would be my recommendation to you but I appreciate it can be a lot of work and expense.

Agreed. As I said, good excuse to buy yourself a Festool dust extractor, and don't be fooled into buying a more expensive M (medium) or H (high) risk extractor, no need the L (low) versions works exactly the same if not better. Only very small but important caveat being, on the CTLMIDI, don't do the filter cleaning pulse after vacuuming asbestos! Simply go outside and gently tap the filter out for 20 seconds on the ground and wash area with water, there should be virtually zero dust in there anyway as the filtersacks (clue is in the name) prefilters the dust through a double layer.

As Lacan says, I'm sure there are diligent, reasonable teams out there but I suspect many are overcharging, due to fear, for a poor job. I mean how many guys damp down? and how many vacuum the entire room afterwards? I suspect virtually nil.

Am pretty sure you can do a better and safer job yourself, just common sense, take your time and make more dust than you need to. Remember, big chunks are ok, try not to pulverise it. It's going to cost you to have it removed anyway, double or triple bag it (rubble bag within a larger HD plastic, zip tied and protected in a nylon tyvek sack)

If you get others in to do it you may still have to damp down and vacuum everything anyway afterwards.

 

[Lacan07]

Agreed. As I said, good excuse to buy yourself a Festool dust extractor, and don't be fooled into buying a more expensive M (medium) or H (high) risk extractor, no need the L (low) versions works exactly the same if not better. Only very small but important caveat being, on the CTLMIDI, don't do the filter cleaning pulse after vacuuming asbestos! Simply go outside and gently tap the filter out for 20 seconds on the ground and wash area with water, there should be virtually zero dust in there anyway as the filtersacks (clue is in the name) prefilters the dust through a double layer.

As Lacan says, I'm sure there are diligent, reasonable teams out there but I suspect many are overcharging, due to fear, for a poor job. I mean how many guys damp down? and how many vacuum the entire room afterwards? I suspect virtually nil.

Am pretty sure you can do a better and safer job yourself, just common sense, take your time and make more dust than you need to. Remember, big chunks are ok, try not to pulverise it. It's going to cost you to have it removed anyway, double or triple bag it (rubble bag within a larger HD plastic, zip tied and protected in a nylon tyvek sack)

If you get others in to do it you may still have to damp down and vacuum everything anyway afterwards.

The guy that removed my tiles definitely didn't damp the area down first, it was a bit of a joke to be honest. Like you said I think the risk is pretty minimal on these occasions, it depends on the circumstance and where the material is. Builders are more at risk because they may be exposed to it more frequently over the course of a career. I've met quite a few builders who think its over egged though.

 

[Toby Newell]

The guy that removed my tiles definitely didn't damp the area down first, it was a bit of a joke to be honest. Like you said I think the risk is pretty minimal on these occasions, it depends on the circumstance and where the material is. Builders are more at risk because they may be exposed to it more frequently over the course of a career. I've met quite a few builders who think its over egged though.

Yes and No. Fear is exactly that and fear really is simply ignorance of the unknown. Only some asbestos is dangerous and only when finely divided, disturbed, airborne and only then when inhaled. All these dangers can be mitigated. A simple, common sense and methodical approach is required. Damping down is a no brainer, as is cleaning meticulously afterwards, both often neglected.

Glade plug ins under a sunny window release a steady stream of d-limonene that smells lovely as the UV light streaming through an open window or door creates ozone and turns it into formaldehyde. Formaldehyde is a possibly mutagenic toxin.

So, no one walks about their house like the men from E.T. We actively pump low doses of mutagenic precusors around our house, wash our hands and hair with it and rub and spray it all over our bodies. No one cares because no one knows.

Ignorance is both fear and bliss it would seem.

 

[samberzina]

Thank you both, some really good common sense advice here and has made us feel a little more reassured. We will see what the test comes back as but I do agree that you get charged a lot of money for people doing a pretty rubbish job in a lot of cases. We are still picking up the ceiling dust after we had removals guys around some time ago.

Buy a fixer upper, it will be fun they said