And ideas - what type of ceiling?

[Lanes]

Hello everyone, this is my first post, but have been loitering here for many many months.

I recently bought a period house and have used previous threads to answer most of my questions - apart from a couple, so thank you for all your help!

A little about my house - it's an 18th Century barn conversion - not that unusual I know, but the conversion was actually carried out in the 18th Century - which I think is quite unusual. Many original features remain from when the conversion took place, but a couple in particular I cannot seem to get to the bottom of.

There are just 2 areas of original ceiling left - both on the first floor, but I cannot identify the type. I was informed by the previous owners that when the bedroom ceiling "came down", it was actually thatch on the inside of the house. Now I'm not sure if this is the case nor do I have pictures. However, a further portion of the ceiling is now looking a little precarious and the cracks becoming more pronounced. The ceiling itself is very rough and not level at all. there are no visible beams, but there appear to be laths underneath. I'm thinking that this may be rush and lime? The second floor has very firmly nailed down floor boards (1970's style) and I unable to lift any without sawing through then (partition walls etc built over them). Where the ceiling actually joins the outside walls is curved and also very uneven. (The property used to be thatched but this was removed in the late 60's)

Has anyone any ideas on this? Any thoughts/suggestions greatly appreciated!!

Lanes.

 

[middi]

If the barn was converted to accomodation in the 18thC. the ceilings and partitions would have, almost certainly, consisted of wattles ( laths) and daub or hair rich lime render, depending on what part of the country this is situated would determine the type of substrata used to apply any daub or lime render or mixture of both on it. Reeds, hazel and oak being the most common.

If you can get access to the roof space and take a good look at the structure it may give an idea as to how old the actual structure may be.( unless you already know of course)

As to any repairs required to the ceilings, it is always best to repair like for like. If the wattles or laths have decayed to the point that they are unserviceable and have to be removed, It is still best to rebuild like for like . You can use modern materials for speed and economy if you have to. ( it is all reversable repair if anybody at any future date wants to convert this back to lath and plaster)

The CO has to be informed of any proposals you have, especially so if the property is listed.

 

[middi]

....forgot to mention. As these partitions and ceilings were done in the 18thC. any ceiling beams or partition studs would , probably, not be of the highest quality, and the tendency was to daub or render both sides of walls or ceilings.

The barn timbers of walls and roof are hidden within the fabric. Usually the roof space is the only accessible place to study the structure.

 

[Lanes]

Thanks Midi. Looks like is back to the floorboards with a hacksaw then!

Some patching has been done in the past, but it looks like modern materials were used, so I want to be sure that any repairs I do are in keeping with the original. You are quite correct about interior walls - some of walls are very thick stone, but upstairs wattle and daub is also used. Looks like they used the daub on the walls too......

The roof space is actually now living accomadation which is why it is more difficult to identify this particular ceiling.
What I can say is that when one of the other ceilings "came down", the previous renovators found that the supporting beams were slim tree trunks with the branches still attached....

Thanks again for your insight. Now I'm back to removing the modern mortar from the lovely stonework.....

 

[inwood]

Thought this might be of interest as I'm going through exactly the same process at the moment. I too have a similar issue to you - big cracks in the ceilings, holes and patches of modern (gypsum) repairs. I've included a few photos below for context (I too have a tree in the attic with logs - nee joists being used to support the reed).

View attachment 2
View attachment 1


I've had to clear all the debris old thatch (part of the old thatch roof still exists under the current roof), debris, dust, etc. about 50 black bags full and five dusty days work) to be able to get a good look at the reeds. Now I've done this I can now it all appears in good condition (except for one joist - which has detached from the main suppporting beam). The ceiling underneath is daub with a lime skim, lining paper and then another skim!

If I can impart some points I've learnt:
1. If you can leave it in place then try to - removing bits of gyspum will destroy the reed as it will be completely wrapped up. This means removing reed, cutting the plaster back past the joist either side of the repair, removing the exposed lath pining the reed to the joist, inserting new reed, pinning with lath and then replastering. The reed on a roll that you can buy from lime suppliers isn't as good as the original (which is much more like a reed board) and it can be tricky to plaster onto (it eats plaster since the gaps are so large).
2. Cracks normally appear along the line of the joists as these (in our cases) are much more flexible being very thin. To repair these you'll need to cut back a channel of plaster along the joist line about 2" wide before replastering. If you don't, and simply try to fill the crack it will simply reappear soon after.
3. Remove as much debris from the back of the reed as possible - it will allow you to look at the condition of the reed, whether it is still attached to the joist and remove additional weight from what tends to be a fairly fragile ceiling.
4. Be very careful around the edges. Typically the reed doesn't always go all the way to the wall, meaning if you disturb the edge you can end up with exposed reed up to 2 inches away from the wall - making it very difficult to fill with plaster as there's nothing for it to hold on to. The only way I've overcome this it to lay reed perpendicular to the original reed (from above) into a couple of dabs of plaster. Wait for this to stiffen fully and then you have a key to work into from below.

If I come across any other tips I'll let you know.