An opportunity - or a financial disaster waiting to happen?

[Flyfisher]

Hello.
I've been lurking here for about six months reading as much as I can find about the trials and tribulations of taking on a period property. In my case, I'm wrestling with a decision about taking on a large, somewhat neglected, C.16 timber-framed GII+ Norfolk property.

I've known the property for 20+ years and I'm certainly not paranoid about it being cold, draughty and damp and without a level floor or straight wall to its name, but I am finding it very hard to determine how much it's going to cost to fix all the faults (and I don't mean all those features are faults! - I'm talking about things like major roof repairs etc).

Now, I fully appreciate that definite answers are difficult, even impossible, with such properties, and I'm quite prepared to accept a high degree of uncertainty in any such estimates, but what has surprised me is the range of estimates I've received. I would always add 50% to any building estimate and in this case I can live with 100%, but I'm finding it hard to reconcile a range of 400% on the figures received so far.

Basically, I'm looking to retire to the property in question and need to be reasonably certain (ideally within 50%, but certainly 100%) that my budget will cover what needs to be done - I don't want to be forced to abandon things because I run out of money. I've had a couple of structural surveys carried out and believe I have a pretty good idea of what work needs to be done, it's the costing of the work that's the problem.

This quote from another topic . . .

Whereabouts in Norfolk are you? There are quite a few forum people in E.Anglia who jump at any chance to nose around someone else's interesting house. Some of them (not me!) even know something about period properties.

. . . is what prompted my first post here. How have other people in a similar situation (I'm sure I'm not unique!) tackled this cost-estimation problem? And, maybe more interestingly, how did things actually work out? Were the final costs anywhere near the expected costs - even after a reasonable contingency had been included in the original budget? (and what would 'reasonable contingency' be in such cases anyway?).

I know there are risks and uncertainties but there comes a point where the project is simply not worth taking on. Any ideas about how to home in on that breaking point before committing myself?

 

[middi]

Obviously you like the property very much, you love the idea of living in an historic building, you have funds to carry out repairs and presumably you have time and the ability, or the will, to carry out some or most of the repairs yourself.

If you fulfill the above criteria you are almost there, it all depends on how much you understand these buildings and how committed you would be to learn what makes these buildings " tick".

The building needs to be surveyed by an archirect that specialises on conservation and repairs of these buildings, bearing in mind that even to the expert eye it would be difficult to totally evaluate the extend of any damage due to unaccessible areas.

It is only after such report you will be able to prioritise any shedule of works, costs involved by using specialists trades and how much of the work, if any, are you willing to udertake.

If you use the above guideline it would be wise to allow at least another another 30 or 40% for contingency.

If the building is listed you will need to get in touch with your local conservation officer before you carry out any repairs.

 

[Moo]

Of course, the work comes in several stages, so another factor will be at what stage you are compelled to stop.

The first stage is where you have to make sure that the place is structurally sound. Things like roof and windows and drains and walls and things. There's no point in skimping on this, so your budget has to be big enough to cope*.

The next two stages can be thought of as optional extras: heating, draughtproofing and such-like; and really frivolous things like paint and curtains and carpets. Stuff that would be nice if the first stage hasn't swallowed up all the moolah, but that isn't all that important in the great scheme of things.

So if you love the house enough to be prepared to live in moderate discomfort, go for it!

*As Middi says, you can save quite a bit by doing lots of the labouring yourself.

 

[Flyfisher]

Obviously you like the property very much, you love the idea of living in an historic building, you have funds to carry out repairs and presumably you have time and the ability, or the will, to carry out some or most of the repairs yourself.

I can tick all of the above boxes (I certainly have the will, time will tell if I have the ability ) but the problem is the funding. Like anyone, I have some funds for repairs but my problem is determining if I have enough.

If you fulfill the above criteria you are almost there, it all depends on how much you understand these buildings and how committed you would be to learn what makes these buildings " tick".

Well, I'm certainly no expert but I have read and learned so much recently that I think I can at least talk half-sensibly about the challenges involved. What I have found encouraging is that my natural inclinations are quite well suited to such properties; I can't stand hermetically sealed buildings, even at the expense of being quite cool - jumpers, long-johns and electric blankets go a long way! - and we've had open fires for years.

The actual changes we envisage to the property are quite minor really but the repairs are quite major, including extensive roof work, all rainwater management and probably complete re-rendering to remove the cemetitious stuff that is clearly trapping all the water that has penetrated the fabric of the building due to the poor roof and guttering etc. I'm not trying to skimp on what needs to be done, I just want to know (or be reasonably confident) that I can actually afford it.

The first stage is where you have to make sure that the place is structurally sound. Things like roof and windows and drains and walls and things. There's no point in skimping on this, so your budget has to be big enough to cope*.

The next two stages can be thought of as optional extras: heating, draughtproofing and such-like; and really frivolous things like paint and curtains and carpets. Stuff that would be nice if the first stage hasn't swallowed up all the moolah, but that isn't all that important in the great scheme of things.

The actual phasing of the project should not be a problem. We're OK on 'roughing it' a bit (within reason!) while the building adapts to a new roof and, hopefully, drier walls, and then taking things slowly with the internal work (which is very much in our nature anyway ), but as a retirement project an awful lot of the concern comes down to the costs . . . and whether we will be able to afford them. Apart from that, I'm fairly comfortable with things.

It sounds like I need to find some more specialist builders to talk to about the likely costs.

Thank you for the replies . . . I know I'm asking impossible questions but I guess many people here have asked similar impossible questions and survived

 

[skier-hughes]

Hi Fly,

Posting at last!!

I think you'd be mad to miss the opportunity you have with this house, being as beautiful as it is.

I would say 30/40% contingency is being modest.

Being in this house for nearly two years now, things take much longer than anticipated.

Our kitchen.. started by removing the plaster, we found things that needed opening up, looking into, work doing to. Then you get back down to the work you intended. Followed by something cropping up that you hadn't foreseen, this then makes your plans change, so more time is spent reviewing were you want to end up, redrawing plans....

As you don't have to live in it to begin with, this isn't going to be a major problem for you.

Sourcing the right materials can take time and this can also add considerably to any budget, take our windows. We had special douglas fir imported, this took about 16 weeks to get, plus was very expensive in comparison to any old timber.

This difference in quality of materials may well make a big difference in quotes given by people. Also, those more used to dealing with old buildings may well be thinking we're going to find something there that is going to have to be done, whereas the cheaper guy just rells you it isn't included in your scedule of works and is going to cost £x's more to sort out!!

So far we are looking at nearly 100% contingency, but we are trying to buy the best of everything we can find, taking value into account as well.

I would also say you need to be pretty committed to it, it will take nearly all your time and money, but it'll be fantastic come retirement :wink:

Graham

 

[Penners]

Builders' estimates can sometimes be a black art, so the range of prices you've received aren't really that surprising - particularly with a period building.

Here are some of the factors that can cause variations to builders' estimates:-

1. How busy they are. A busy builder will often quote a very high price for a job. They figure that if they don't get the job they've still got work anyway, and if they do get the job they'll juggle it in somehow and make good money on it.

2. How experienced they are with period buildings. An inexperienced builder will lack knowledge of the knock-on problems that can occur with such buildings, and fail to include a healthy contingency for them in his estimate.

3. How ethical they are. Some of the more unscrupulous fringe members of that honourable trade will sometimes pitch their estimate low, and then halfway through the job will hit you with a costly list of "extras". This is particularly easy for them to do with period buildings: "Well, guv, we couldn't have foreseen the rot that we found under the floor..." etc.

It has to be said that pricing a period property renovation job is never easy. The "rot under the floor" syndrome invariably crops up genuinely in some form or another - often many times during the project. So your best bet is to do as much background research as possible on the available builders in your area. Find out what experience they have had with period buildings, and ask for (and follow up) references from previous clients with period property projects.

It's also worth talking to your Conservation Officer. He/she will never recommend a builder, but they will often allow you to see a list of those builders who have done local authority period building work. You can then invite one or two of these to quote, making sure that they know where you got their name. They are unlikely to want to queer their pitch with the local authority.

Then, when you invite quotes, give the builders your detailed written analysis of the work that you require. Your level of knowledge may not enable you to give every technical detail, but you can at least say things like "Rectify the roof leak above bedroom 2". This will ensure that each quote will based as much as possible on the same list of criteria. It will also reduce the risk of any dispute over precisely what has been included in each estimate. You should finish your written list with something like: "Please also include details and prices for any repair work that you recommend over and above the items listed here".

If you don't feel confident doing this, consider using the services of a local surveyor or architect, experienced with period properties. They can give you their views on th work that needs doing, and - if you wish - draw up a scheule of works for builders to quote on. They should also be able to give you their views on local builders. This service will probably cost you several hundred pounds, but could save you thousands. They can also handle all the business of your Listed Building application, and will know much more than you about what is likely or unlikely to be acceptable to the CO.

Middi's comments about your own hands-on involvement in the project are worth taking seriously. I don't know whether you have any previous relevant DIY experience, but putting your own hands to work on the job can save you a substantial sum.

I retired a few years ago, and I'm working on an extended period property project. I find the work immensely satisfying and rewarding (spiritually and financially!), and I have the peace-of-mind of knowing that each job has been done to my own satisfaction.

You might need to cut back on the fishing, though!

Good luck, and do let us know how you get on.

 

[Flyfisher]

Hi Graham,
Yes, I finally gave up just reading and thought it time to dive in.

Everything you say makes perfect sense and is no real surprise, especially the bit about starting a job and uncovering things that lead to more work than intended. I think I'm quite conservative when it comes to risk and am hesitating because I feel things could get out of control, financially anyway - I know anything can be done, it's just the cost!

I would also say you need to be pretty committed to it, it will take nearly all your time and money, but it'll be fantastic come retirement

I think I'm committed enough but if it takes all my money I won't have the time to retire as I'll have to keep working!

Penners; likewise, your points all make good sense. Actually, the "rot under the floor" has already occurred in one of the rooms, about 15 years ago, hence the fact that it no longer has floorboards and now consists of the original tiles laid directly on the ground. Still, I'm not too precious about that, I quite like the tiles. All the classic reasons applied; blocked air bricks, no air circulation and outside ground levels too high - all of which I'm confident are fairly easy to fix and I should be able to do myself.

DIY-wise, I like to think I'm pretty handy although until recently I've been in the time-poor, money-OK position of working full-time, so I've been able to pay for things to be done and thus I'm a bit out of practice. But I'm certainly keen, which I'm hoping will count for a lot when I reverse this situation.

I've already spoken and met with the CO and am also talking with a surveyor/architect firm about planning the project, particularly regarding the LBC issues. Again (and sorry to be stuck in the same groove), I'm reasonably comfortable with the process(es), it's determining the price tag that's my current worry. I guess I haven't spoken to enough of the right type of builders yet.

It's interesting to hear that you recently retired, Penners, and took on a similar sounding project. How did you approach the problem of satisfying yourself that you'd be able to afford it without seeing your pension provision disappear into a black hole?

As for the fishing, the fact that the property is bounded by a good Norfolk chalkstream is one of the attractions, so I don't want to have to cut back too much :wink:

Thanks again for the all feedback; the encouragement is most welcome. My heart tells me I should have faith and go for it, my head is still worrying about the bank manager :?

 

[Moo]

You don't need any sophisticated diy skills to do what our builders called "all the really shitty jobs' - just endurance and determination - and you can save quite a bit that way.
And, while you will want to get top-quality materials for the permanent things, you can economise elsewhere; ephemera like kitchens and bathrooms can be bought for peanuts.

 

[Nigel]

Flyfisher

Back in 2003 the wife and I did exactly what you are contemplating, buying a Grade A listed house dating from 1610/1775. It needed six figures spending on it as the previous owner had lived in it for 50 years and had let things go. Rewiring, plumbing, heating, total releading of roof, dry rot, wet rot, kitchens, bathrooms, total redecoration etc all featured.

We came in on budget, albeit we were lucky and no real bad surprises emerged during the works. The key, I think, to our success was we used a great QS throughout the project (total fees just over £2k). The benefit of this was he picked the best local contractors and then made sure their quotes were honest. None of this get three tenders stuff, just make sure you have the right people on board. He then reviewed all the work on an ongoing basis and kept the contractors tightly managed throughout.

Good luck!


Nigel

 

[Flyfisher]

Thanks for that Nigel. It sounds very similar to my situation although I think I have it easier because our property is 'only' GII+ and has 'only' been neglected for 40 years, not 50 :wink:

Your description of the work you needed is pretty close to my list ( ), although it's obviously difficult to know the relative extent of the work.

I'm also expecting a six-figure final cost for everything but my current problem is determining the first digit of that number!

But it's very encouraging to hear these sorts of success stories and it must be immensely satisfying to have saved what must be a very special building. The message I'm getting from pretty much everything I read - and basic common sense really - is that it's so important to use the right people in the first place. It's good to know they are out there.

 

[Penners]

It's interesting to hear that you recently retired, Penners, and took on a similar sounding project. How did you approach the problem of satisfying yourself that you'd be able to afford it without seeing your pension provision disappear into a black hole?

I took a deep breath, crossed my fingers, faced north and sacrificed a goat.

Or to put it another way, I did fag-packet calculations for all the things that I could see, and added 100% for all the things I couldn't. So far (about 60% complete) I'm not too far off budget.


(I lied about the goat).

 

[Flyfisher]

The 'fag-packet' calcs are the main problem for me as I'm not really experienced enough to fully judge the costs myself, hence I'm relying on others which is where the wide range of estimates is coming from.

But I'm beginning to feel better about it all, or is that a normal self-delusion phase that afflicts this sort of project? It certainly seems good to talk - goodness knows what we'd do without the web.

When you say you are more or less on budget, does that refer to your original budget for the things you could see and explicitly plan for, or does it imply that you've also had to use the 100% contingency you planned in for the things you couldn't see? In other words, you've planned for the unexpected but have you actually encountered it?

Meanwhile, I'm off to find a spare goat . . . .


(I'm joking - honest!)

 

[Nigel]

Flyfisher

I suspect Penners is experienced at this game and hence fag packet works for him. We weren't and you sound of a similar ilk. Best bet is use your architect/QS to recommend the best contractor/s and then get them on site to quote (for free, with carrot they get the business if you buy). Then get A/QS to vet quote.

This removes the doubt and allows you to budget. The sole remaining decision is how much to allow for bad news: a good A/QS will be able to guide you.

Cheers

Nigel

 

[Penners]

When you say you are more or less on budget, does that refer to your original budget for the things you could see and explicitly plan for, or does it imply that you've also had to use the 100% contingency you planned in for the things you couldn't see?

It means I'm roughly on fag-packet. I've strayed into contingency territory a bit, but not seriously enough to keep me awake at night.

However, I agree with Nigel that your architect and/or surveyor is likely to be your best friend in establishing cost forecasts. He will certainly be more reliable than my fag-packet - particularly as I'm a non-smoker.

But... there are never certainties in the business of building renovation. However much you try to pin down a budget at the outset, you'll always have to take a certain amount on faith and hope.

You could try charity, too, but I've never had any luck in that department.

 

[middi]

All I can say is, if you have 100 grand to spend and you are willing to chip in on some of the donkey work, it is a substantial sum of money to get the place structurally sound and ready to decorate.

 

[Flyfisher]

Nigel/Penners, I'm already talking with a local architect/surveyor partnership at this planning stage and hopefully things will work out well. I realise I'll need a certain amount of professional input and that the investment should pay for itself if I find the right firm.

Middi, your post exactly expresses my gut instinct. £100k should pay for an awful lot of work - I guess the trick is to find exactly the right people who will spend it on exactly the right things.

I'm beginning to think my second thoughts might be a bit premature and I need to get better and more detailed information from the architect/surveyor.

It's probably just the lack of sunshine this time of year making me depressed - that, and having a cold, damp, leaking house to worry about :wink:

Thanks again for all your comments. They are very helpful.

 

[Penners]

I agree with Middi. It's a hell of a project if it will eat up more than £100k. You can build an entire modest self-build house for that.

 

[NT]

How much of it youre wiling to do yourself has to be a significant question

NT

 

[Flyfisher]

Unfortunately, it is a large property, almost 6000 sq feet. I'm prepared to do a lot of the work myself but realistically there will be a lot things I won't be skilled enough for, especially regarding the roof. But once the basic repairs are done I'm hoping to be able to a lot of the remaining work.

 

[Penners]

the roof

Speaking as one retired gentleman to another, I agree that roofing work is for younger chaps!