Am I insane?

[HereGoesNothing]

Hi,

Thinking about my first journey into renovation and - you guessed it - it happens to be Grade II listed. We've had a builder round and he's given us a quote far too rough to base anything on so I thought I'd see if anyone can help - obviously seeing the property might help but are there people out there with good mind's eyes? What we're looking at is:
2 floors (7 rooms, 2 corridors) that need replastering,
replacing about 9 sash windows
MAYBE replacing 3 stone lintels
Victorian radiators put in,
converting 5 bedrooms into ensuites (mostly plumbing costs as will not be creating separate ensuite rooms, just creative space usage)
damp proofing the cellar (4 rooms)
plastering the cellar and installing a bathroom
converting a double garage (double height but thankfully not listed) into 2 ensuite bedrooms
New banister

Electrics, plumbing, floors and ceiling are structurally fine so it's more cosmetic and the plumbing for the ensuites.

So, what I'm after is (a) your opinion on my sanity, (b)chances of getting PP for the cellar and garage and (c) any guesses at how much that might cost (inc bathroom fittings). A case of champagne if anyone gets within 5K! The words 'lath and plaster' have already started to send shivers down my spine.

I look forward to your replies!

Al

 

[DaveBrigg]

That's quite a question, for which there is no easy answer. Things you will need to be clearer on include:
Have you checked for listing building consent, especially with the en-suites and replacing the sash windows? A quick chat to your conservation officer (if they are available on the phone) may clarify things before you submit any formal proposals.
Do the sash windows need replacing? You will almost certainly have to replace like with like, so unless they have rotted beyond redemption it may be cheaper to repair (as well as retaining more of the historic fabric). If you really do have to replace, the cost will be greatly affected by size and design, and £1 000 a window is not out of the question.
The room plastering will again depend greatly on size, but if the ceilings are ok, that is a good start. Depending where you live, a lime plasterer could be between £150 and £200+ a day, with a little less for a labourer to mix and carry. An average sized room might take two or three days, depending on the finish you want. Does all the old plaster need to come off? Is it off already, or can some be saved?
Replacing stone lintels will again depend a lot on size, whether the stone needs to be carved, and where the lintel is. A simple ground floor window which will be rendered over later will be a fraction of the cost of an upstairs window with carved details. Why 'MAYBE'? Are they broken?
How do you intend to damp proof the cellar? A quick search for 'cellar' on this site will bring up a lot of questions about damp cellars, and no easy answers. There are companies that specialise in that sort of thing, and you may be better off contacting them directly.
If you are planning on having 7 ensuite bedrooms (a hotel perhaps?), start by looking at what sort of style you want. A quick check here http://www.screwfix.com/ shows bathroom suites from £200 to £630.
How much of the work are you planning to do yourself?
If you are serious about this project, you need to break it down into separate tasks and do a bit of research on each. Then add them all together. Posting a few pictures on here may help, but even then it is hard to give a precise figure.

When you have got your total, add another 50% to cover all the things that crop up after you have started. I'm not sure that you'll meet anyone on this site who hasn't gone over budget, and I'm still forking out 18 months and a few thousand pounds after it was all supposed to be finished A few hours looking back through this forum will bring up many of the common problems encountered, and a few solutions, and may help you to avoid some costly mistakes.
Good luck.

 

[Pford75]

I echo Dave's comments.....here are some additional thoughts.

1. Add costs for LBC applications

2.

2 floors (7 rooms, 2 corridors) that need replastering

Another thread contains some good plastering costs - I believe Biff posted cost/sq m

3.

Victorian radiators put in,

- Varies hugely depending on whether you use reclaimed or new. If you have reclaimed ones flushed, stripped and polished, they can be quite expensive. Will be driven by heatloss calcs, but I would budget for 30-50 quid per section of radiator ie. a 10 section rad will cost 300-500 quid

4.

converting 5 bedrooms into ensuites (mostly plumbing costs as will not be creating separate ensuite rooms, just creative space usage)

- As Dave says....don't assume you will get LBC for this. Also, an additional 5 bathrooms could require an upgrade to your tank etc. With this many bathrooms, it is probably sensible to consider an unvented pressurised system. This could cost 2000+ alone (without plumbing for the ensuites)

5.

converting a double garage (double height but thankfully not listed)

. If the garage is in the curtilage of the property then it is covered by the listing. So this could require LBC. Not only that, it will require change of use from planning, which can also be problematic. These are far from straightforward. However, if you acheive these, I would expect apx. 100 pounds/sq ft.

6.

New banister

- What's wrong with the existing one? Can vary considerably, but again will be covered by LBC and could require a bespoke replacement

I'm keen to be helpful, but it feels like you need some time with the Conservation Officer first....this will determine what you can/can't change and they will also have a big impact on the specification of the work allowed (which will in turn affect the cost)

 

[Flyfisher]

I'd also echo the good practical advice but, given it's a listed building, I would emphasise the importance of talking with your local authority conservation officer before committing to anything. Invite your CO out to the property and discuss your plans for it while walking around. I think this would be more productive than a phone call where it would be difficult for the CO to really understand and visualise your plans. Remember, the CO is responsible primarily to the property and if you find that your plans are not acceptable to the CO then the project won't be getting off to a good start. Also, a good CO should be able to offer advice on how best to implement your plans.

 

[middi]

Good advise from Dave, as you mentioned ( and quite obvious) you are new to restoration and listed buildings.

It may have to be approached something like this:-

1) identify clearly what you want from your property.
2) Dicuss this with the CO
3) The CO will ( should) guide you on some do's and dont's as far as the property is concerned but will not agree on anything untill your are asked to submit detailled ( or outline ) drawings as may be the case.
4) if you are not put off by the CO's requirements engage an architect that understands listed building to do your drawings or submit changes to the building ( one that deals with your local authority on regular basis would be beneficial)
5) get quotes for all or some of the work which is not undertaken by yourself, based on the architects spec's and(or) guidelines.
6) do not start any work untill is has been agreed, in writing, by the local authority
7) it is very important to work in harmony with the CO, architect ( as required for guidance) and any builders which you may wish to eventually engage,
9) read and learn as much as you can about conservation and restoration
10) it would be wise to join the SPAB for valuable free information and advise.

 

[Nemesis]

converting a double garage (double height but thankfully not listed) into 2 ensuite bedrooms

Possibly

If the garage is in the curtilage of the property then it is covered by the listing. So this will require LBC.

Possibly not

 

[Schoolmarm]

Have you bought it yet?

 

[Pford75]

I appreciate that these matters are rarely black and white...but my reference to the garage conversion requiring LBC was based upon the following extract from my local authority

The Effect of Listing

A building is listed in its entirety. There is no such thing as just a listed façade or interior. A building is described in the list but the description is not comprehensive and is for identification purposes only, although sometimes special internal or external features are mentioned.

The listing of a building applies not only to that building but also to any buildings within its curtilage. The curtilage is the garden or area attached to a house; buildings within it can include outbuildings, barns, stables, farm buildings, walls and gates. Note that some buildings may have been curtilage buildings at the time of listing but have since been sold into separate ownership. They are still curtilage buildings

 

[Nemesis]

That's not the whole story, there's also case law to consider, and of course there's the date too.

The curtilage of a listed building is normally considered to be the land, buildings and structures which go with or are ancillary to the principal building. Any buildings or structures which formed part of the land associated with, or belonging to, the principal building at the time of listing are considered to be within the 'curtilage' of the listed building and are therefore considered part of it. Buildings or structures that date from after 1st July 1948, and which are unattached to the listed building, are not considered to be curtilage listed.



Typically, structures covered by curtilage listing might include: walls, gates, railings, gatehouses, stables, urns, statues, dairies, barns, privies and cart sheds. To demolish, alter or move any such structure, you will need to apply for Listed Building Consent.

And:

http://talkwithus.westsussex.gov.uk/ccm/content/environment/heritage-wildlife-and-landscape/heritage-and-historic-environment/conservation-areas-general.jsp?page=5

 

[KN]

Also are you going to rent, put all your furniture into storage, hire Porter Loo's,showers, VAT, cost of Architect.
All adds to the costs.
Good bank manager that will not pull the plug when you have to ask for more!

 

[Penners]

There's one immutable principle to keep in mind when you're starting a repair/renovation project, particularly on a listed building, and that's the following:

Whatever you think it will cost, whatever quotes and estimates you get, it'll cost more. Often a lot more.

Sorry if that sounds pessimistic, but you need to have your eyes wide open before you commit yourself.

 

[HereGoesNothing]

Firstly I want to thank everyone who replied to this thread - knowing there's people out there who are willing to help gives me encouragement! It's always good to know you're not the first one to go through a rough ride... Thanks again.

We haven't yet put in an offer on the property. We've got a damp specialist coming around to view it this week. In all the conversations we've had with the council, they haven't once mentioned a CO and indeed seem laissez faire about the renovations we'd be doing (didn't seem to care about the kind of plastering or pointing we would be doing) but I understand about having something in writing.

I say MAYBE about the lintels because we saw the survey from the last time it was sold which was four years ago and it mentioned them but didn't seem to think they needed attention in regard to the safety of the property, so hopefully the same still stands. The property is about 200 years old, so how much difference can four years make!?

The ceilings look like they just need touching up slightly, there's nasty looking ceiling tiles in the main bathroom which would have to come off so I presume that ceiling would need re-plastering. Oh, and in one of the reception rooms, a stud wall has been put in to create a downstairs loo between the hallway and the room - when we talked to the council they seemed to have no problem about knocking this down and removing the loo. It looks like it's a sixties change - should we get something in writing before I dust off my sledgehammer?

We're not planning on it being a hotel but would that make a difference - even would it make it easier if we were to say it was to be a hotel? We want all the rooms en suite just because we want it to be the best it can be - and to show off to our friends

We would be getting contractors to do the vast majority of the work - our strength is project management rather than the actual skills needed, however I'm sure PM of a renovation is different from the PM of our day jobs.

So, it sounds like we need to go round the property with a CO and obtain PP for any changes we intend to make - can I do all that before purchase and anyone know roughly how much it would cost to get PP? Is there a fixed price for the applications? The council's website is less than useless and tracking down anyone in the planning department is like trying to nail fog to a wall.

My main concern is getting consent to do the work, getting estimates and then in reality everything spirals out of control. Is there any way to mitigate against this or is it the nature of the beast? I'd love to hear more about people's experiences, tips and advice when they were at the stage I am - did it lead to huge arguments? Tips for handling surly plumbers? How to navigate your way through a planning department? The best way to charm a bank manager?

If I ever meet anyone who answered, it's definitely my round at the bar - thanks again!

 

[Lime]

The Planning Dept, the Building Inspector and the CO are often completely different in their view of things because their responsibilities in law are very different.

Don't base your judgements on telephone calls either!

 

[alison]

Er - can I ask a question?
Do you really love the house for its own sake, or do you love the idea of getting it how you want it? If you have an idea of 'the best it can be' that's informed by undeniably modern expectations (like the en-suites), then an old house, with its compromises, constraints and costs, may not be right for you.

I had two people survey my house at the same time (structural engineer and timber and damp inspector). They were both specialists in historic buildings and were chuckling about the fact that they both lived in modern houses. One said 'My wife says if we win the lottery she’d like to buy an old cottage. I say to her if we win the lottery I'll build you one.'

As the owner of a grade II house, you are effectively the building's own personal conservation officer. It’s listed for a reason, and it’s protected by law. So to go with the grain and as guardian of a part of the country’s built heritage, it pays to think like a CO. Your first duty is to the building - yes, before even what you want myself. That's what I mean by compromises (not just having a couple fewer en-suites). I have a small grade II house and the building itself shapes my plans far more than I do – it’s been an unexpected and rewarding relationship. So if you do go ahead, expect the building to change you probably more than you change it. .

Another thing I've heard is that owning an old property is like owning a classic car – that rings very true both as regards cost and your motivation for looking after it. If that’s what you’re prepared to let yourself in for, go for it. Lots of good advice on this site.

 

[KN]

Well I would seruoisly look at how much money you have available to you. Be it using your cash first and getting then Mortage on the property . If you need all mortgage if you can get enough to complete the project. As if it all goes wrong you need to have the house finished to get the best price for it. Sounds doom and gloom but if you do have the plug pulled like we did, it cost us £9,000 to move mortage companies.

 

[Pford75]

Planning Permission, Listed Building Consent and Building Regulations approval are not the same thing and it's often the case that the different individuals within your local council either don't talk to each other, or have differing views.

It sounds as though there have been some changes to the property in the past which may or may not have LBC (you mention a stud wall). You should be aware that strictly the owner is liable for all unauthorised works (even if they were undertaken by a previous owner). I would strongly advise a site visit with the CO before purchase to discuss both this and your plans.

Great insight from Alison as well - think very carefully before purchase. For example, how would you react if your were refused permission to create the changes you want? Some people can't accept that they cannot always do exactly as they wish with their building...but that's part and parcel of owning a listed building.

Also, might be an idea to join SPAB and see if you can attend a Listed Building Owners workshop before embarking on your purchase.....they are great educational sessions and will be of value if you decide to proceed

 

[Nemesis]

SPAB is open to all - you don't have to own a listed building, and in order to attend the home owners' courses (and to use the free advice service) you don't have to be a member, although of course best to join.

 

[Penners]

You seem uncertain about what consents you would need, and without precise details of everything you plan to do it's difficult to give you definitive information on this.

You will, however, definitely need Listed Building Consent for any changes to the building, other than genuine like-for-like repairs. And if you're putting in bathrooms, etc. you'll need Building Regulations consent, too. You may not need planning permission, but you would be wise to discuss this with your CO.

LBC is free of charge. Building regs requires payment of a fee on a sliding scale according to the cost of the work you're undertaking.

 

[Moo]

Alison's message should be required reading for anybody considering buying a listed property. She's hit the nail firmly on the head.

I don't know whether it's possible to approach the local conservation officer about a house you're only thinking of buying (Gareth - a definitive ruling, please?), but I reckon that would be the best first step. Find out whether/if/how much you can modify the house to suite your purpose, and if you find the rules too restrictive, it would probably be best to walk away and look for something else.

 

[Flyfisher]

I don't know whether it's possible to approach the local conservation officer about a house you're only thinking of buying (Gareth - a definitive ruling, please?), but I reckon that would be the best first step.

It was certainly possible in my case and it was invaluable to talk through the relatively few changes we wanted to make and confirm that they were acceptable in principle before committing ourselves. Of course, any such discussion is not binding but it will give you a feel for the likely acceptability of any plans as well as being an ideal opportunity to meet possibly the most important person you'll be dealing with.