Alternative to storage heaters in 15thc house?

[pianoredwood73]

Hi everyone, sorry in advance if this is long.
We live in a 15thc GII listed Devon house which we're almost certain is stone built not cob. Victorian windows which do need draughtproofing, it's on the list...only been here a few months.

Our budget is limited although we're both very practical and used to restoring old buildings. It's in good condition but has been nastily 'done' in the 70's and there's a lot we want to put right over time.

Primary focus at the mo is heating, we have electric storage heaters in most (not all) rooms and inglenook fireplaces which need making safe and stoves fitting (been built into in the 70's.
and have been told they're dangerous.) There are beautiful original elm boards in most of the first floor which there's no way we want to disturb, cut into, etc, to fit a wet system. We have an oil fired Rayburn, about 60 odd yrs old we'd guess, which powers 2 radiators in the bathrooms in a 1920's extension. Next spring we're hoping to extend the kitchen and aren't sure whether to upgrade the rayburn for more rads (in the rooms which wouldn't mean wrecking the boards); just replace the storage heaters with more modern versions; or go for something like a pellet fired boiler. Not keen on oil, no gas but electric isn't cheap either and not sure what's best. Wiring is apparently safe but a bit dated and we'd love to redo it when budget allows cos nowhere near enough sockets etc.

Really want to get a feel for the overall picture re heating so that anything we do this year will fit in with the kitchen extension next year. I suspect that preserving the elm boards will mean that our only choice is replacing storage heaters with newer versions. But if anyone can advise if this is the case, what the options are like, etc, I'd be really grateful. By the way this isn't a cold house at all, it's just that we don't have heat sources in every room, and storage heating means that by the evening it's cooler than we'd like, but far too hot in the mornings...

Sorry this is such a ramble. Thanks for reading!

Sarah

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

Sounds like you have a great project going there - good luck with it all.

Storage heaters are truly the appliances of Satan - big, ugly, hot at the wrong time, monstrously awkward to shift, generally rubbish in every way. We were so pleased to get rid of ours.

Electric heating of any sort is pretty disasterous from an environmental point of view due to the inefficiencies of power generation and transmission. I'd guess if you've thought about wood pellet boilers you're probably interested in ticking the green box a bit. In terms of actually producing heat from electricity all electric heaters are highly efficient, so if you can generate your own power then you could be in business!

Realistically a wet system is probably the way to go, especially if you can fuel it with biomass e.g. wood pellet boiler, wood fired stove with back boiler, wood fired range cooker. Otherwise its oil, I'm afraid. Or LPG. I don't know the relative costs, but I imagine LPG is pretty eyewatering, and then there's the storage tank to accomodate. Lifestyle comes in here too - if you're out at work all day it's no good trying to run a hungry wood stove as you're main heat source; something automated will be required.

In terms of piping up radiators or other emitters you could probably do a lot of it in microbore (10mm dia.) piping which is much easier to work around structure and decor than you might imagine. If those elm floors really can't be lifted perhaps you could install from below, or run behind skirtings, or even surface mount and paint in the pipes. But I reckon that with great care and a bit of fiddling you could lift some of your elm boards without causing damage. Be very surprised if a good few haven't been up before for wiring etc. With a bit of ingenuity you should be able to get a supply into most of your rooms. Planning is key to success, and I'm sure you'll be spending a lot of time researching options and investigating the structure of the house to see what's accessible and where.

After that vague but hopefully encouraging wittering I'll now pass you over to the experts.

 

[chuckey]

For the upstairs you could drop your pipes down behind the curtains or chase them into the walls. The problem is to get the supply up there in the first place? If you go the oil way it is possible to get a large green box that stands outside (reputed to be insulated) that is the oil fired boiler. Cos I don't know how you insulate your pipes running outside the house.
Frank

 

[Carol]

If you can take lots of time over this you can probably work out a 'best route' using microbore and avoiding any damage to those elm floors. Have you got any interesting nooks/crannies you can use for the pipes that go between floors? We managed to persuade our plumber (after some discussion) to use our cellar access for the pipework and concealed most of it in there, the rest is hiding in a cupboard beside a fireplace and the microbore pipes are fairly discreet. Anything is better than storage heaters. I would be tempted to stick with the Rayburn and upgrade when you can, they are lovely to cook with! Enjoy your new house.

 

[pianoredwood73]

Many thanks to all of you who replied. Food for thought indeed. Might be less disruptive than we'd thought to consider a wet system. Will talk to plumber. Thanks again.
Sarah

 

[Penners]

I agree with others. In your shoes I would go for a wet system, fed with microbore tube. This can can be surface-mounted in inconspicuous places, and if you still can't live with the look of it, you can cover it with "false" skirtings.

I'm very glad to hear that you won't be disturbing those lovely elm boards. Your chances of lifting them without damage are just about zero.

 

[borischarlton]

Sarah

We had the same problem in our house. No gas and nice 70's style storage heaters in every room. We were lucky enough to have a gas supply within a reasonable distance so paid to have it connected, I recall about £500 in all. We installed the latest type of boiler (bosch) in the loft and run a megaflow. This means that the hot water tank can go anywhere in the house where there is room and can take the weight, in our case the corner of a bedroom in what will be a fitted cupboard. our house is of later construction than yours but we also have elm boards upstairs and flags downstairs, so we went for the honest approach and ran the pipes round the outsides of the rooms and used old cast iron rads and really nice valves. we also used some old school clips to connect the pipes to the walls and this made a great difference to the final appearance.
The megaflow is great, giving mains pressure to the hot water means a lovely shower and it would be very easy to expand the system if needed in the future.
Rob

 

[Cloudscape]

I have a central heating system in place, mostly 22mm with 15mm off it for radiators. One first-floor radiator uses microbore. The ground floor radiators are fed from above, and three out of five work (the other two get airlocks). I'm looking at a new boiler scenario, with new radiators and hopefully some new pipework.

Are there limitations to microbore - such as the distance covered or the number of radiators?

I think the airlocks are happening because the system needs a good clean out and is making air - or does feeding radiators from above cause problems?

Would microbore be OK with a new combi boiler?

 

[Flyfisher]

Are there any limitations with a microbore system? For a given flow rate it must surely be less capable of transferring heat around a house than standard 15mm piping, or is a higher capacity pump required in order to circulate the water faster?

I've been advised that I might need to consider 22mm piping for our system and I presumed this was to increase the 'heat carrying' capacity. Still, even 22mm would be less obtrusive than the old 3-inch cast iron pipes (long disused) that are scattered around the place.

I can certainly see the physical advantages of microbore but I'd want to be very sure that the installed system would actually perform adequately.

 

[Nemesis]

We had one and it didn't.

It may have been because it was being fed by a back boiler on a solid fuel stove, but it wasn't hot enough.

 

[Ian Bond]

I'm considering microbore.

The things that concern me are:

* narrow pipes more vulnerable to scaling (may be OK in my soft water area?)

* pump having to work harder, perhaps wearing quicker

* having to install manifolds in the pipe runs, for the final connections to rads, sounds like extra complication.

* connecting to the rads - is this done differently with microbore - I read that both flow and return connect at one point on the rad? Must be a special valve, which I assume would adapt to old cast iron rads.

The promise of slightly easier routing does appeal though. Anything to help with that is a bonus.

The megaflow sounds good. Is it unvented, and heated by the CH boiler only, or do you have electric immersions are a backup?

I installed a Powerflow unvented hot water cylinder, electric Economy 7 only. One problem is the annoying kettling/hissing immmersions, the other is the necessity of the 22mm overflow pipe, which I had to run of the wall surface to get the required fall.

 

[Ian Bond]

. we also used some old school clips to connect the pipes to the walls and this made a great difference to the final appearance.

Rob

Please could you post a pic, or link to a supplier of the clips?

I can't find decent ones anywhere, only placcy ones or thin 'horse shoe' (correction - saddle!!!!) type clips.

I'd need a decent standoff from the wall, and would need to put in bends to get round coving, picture rails and skirting. Not looking forward to punching through the lath and plaster ceilings either!!!!!

 

[MdB]

* narrow pipes more vulnerable to scaling (may be OK in my soft water area?)

* pump having to work harder, perhaps wearing quicker

* having to install manifolds in the pipe runs, for the final connections to rads, sounds like extra complication.

* connecting to the rads - is this done differently with microbore - I read that both flow and return connect at one point on the rad? Must be a special valve, which I assume would adapt to old cast iron rads.

* Scaling isn't a problem on a closed loop system.

* The pump will have to work harder. Don't know if this is a problem or not.

* Not sure what you are thinking of here. Microbore is connected exactly the same way as normal pipe. You just use different T connections.

* Flow and return connect on either side of the radiator (to my admittedly limited knowledge of plumbing). No special valves, you just need the right converter from microbore to your current radiator fitting.

 

[Ian Bond]

Thanks for the reply MdB.

I got the manifold and twin entry valve stuff from here....

http://www.gasman.fsbusiness.co.uk/system_basics.htm

Not sure how that would work with traditional valves?

 

[MdB]

Ok, my limited plumbing knowledge has just been shown up.

Microbore in my house has been fitted exactly like a normal two pipe system (as shown in the diagram above the microbore one in the link you gave). We have two large pipes (22mm??) going around the house with micro bore T'd off it to radiators in the same room and the floor below. Connections to the radiators are at both ends as normal. I've no idea if the design in our house is sensible or not but it appears to work ok.

I guess there might be a bit of cost saving using only a single twin entry valve but otherwise I don't see that it is required.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

MdB,
Your system sounds very similar to the system which I have installed, viz. 22mm circulation pipes off the boiler, T'd off in 15mm or 10mm to rads. Connections to opposite ends of rads using standard TRV and lockshield valves.

When I designed the system I opted for 22/ 15 pipework as I was concerned about getting enough heat transfer to the rads. Some additional branches added in 10mm (to negotiate tricky bits of structure / decor) have performed perfectly well. So if i was starting again I would probably keep the 22mm circuit but run 10mm to all the rads. The resistance increase due to smaller diameter is probably offset by having fewer joints, elbow and tight bends. And it's so much easier to physically fit in.

I suppose if you have very large rooms with high thermal losses which require large rads then big bore pipework is the way to go.

We went for a conventional low pressure HW system for it's low cost and simplicity.

 

[CHRIS]

. we also used some old school clips to connect the pipes to the walls and this made a great difference to the final appearance.

Rob

Please could you post a pic, or link to a supplier of the clips?

I can't find decent ones anywhere, only placcy ones or thin 'horse shoe' (correction - saddle!!!!) type clips.

I'd need a decent standoff from the wall, and would need to put in bends to get round coving, picture rails and skirting. Not looking forward to punching through the lath and plaster ceilings either!!!!!

I got what are called Munsen rings from B & Q and look great with cast iron rads
http://www.indanc.com/malleable_iron_pipe_fittings_107.php

These are very similar but they do cost as you have to buy the 2 bits in different packets

 

[Ian Bond]

Thanks Chris.

The munsen rings may be OK for a larger standoff, but the clamps look perfect. I've bookmarked that for future ref.

If I don't get the heating sorted by next winter, I will be a single man again!!!!!!!

 

[Flyfisher]

I can understand why a short length of microbore between a 22mm 'mains' and each rad would probably work OK but I was under the impression that microbore was suggested for the original question regarding the difficulty of routing pipework through the building with minimal damage and disruption.

Given an installation where a 22mm 'mains' is feasible, then would it really make that much visual difference to connect the rads with microbore or 15mm piping? Personal choice I guess.

 

[MdB]

In my house, the 22mm pipe only travels horrizontally through a total of 5 walls if my memory is correct (apart from the main feed which comes up the wall near the chimney missing the floorboards). So there is no damage to the floor / ceiling by the large pipes. The microbore is used to go through the floor to the radiators below.