Alternative to limecrete for hallway?

[Elvis]

Hello I'm new here. Fantastic site with excellent information and advice which I can hopefully call on here-

The property is a Victorian Terrace that has had visited upon it most if not all of the usual horrors!

We have had to replace much of the ground floor flooring due to rot (external ground level and unsuitable concrete render/gypsum plaster-all now remedied) and woodworm.

Unfortunately the Mosaic tile hallway floor was also beyond cost effective repair (broken, sagging, decayed lime screed) and has had to come up along with the original lime screed. There is some residual damp by the front door but this is probably due to the thick concrete pad I have just removed which was hard up against the front of the house and level with internal floor height.

We have ordered a reproduction floor from Original Style and I would like some advice on preparing a suitable base for laying them without having to dig out to install limecrete. I am not actually sure as to the breathability of the tiles or whether this would negate the use of lime as a base.

What to do? Any advice most gratefully received at this juncture.

 

[MatthewC]

You certainly need to know if your new tiles are breathable or not, as that will direct your action on the floor. How deep was the original lime screed? What is beneath it?

 

[plasticpigeon]

Those geometric tiles were laid edge to edge with almost no gap and cement grout, so I don't believe they were ever intended as a surface through which water could pass and evaporate. I'd imagine the hall is a strip that runs from the front door away from the front wall of the house against the party wall and maybe has a dog leg half way down. As there is little of it in contact with the outside wall I can't see the need for it to be "breathable". I would think that a cement floor as a base would be very good in this situation. Could you not have kept the original tiles and re laid them? I believe the "Original style" tiles (which is a brand name isn't it?) are glazed with a matt glaze, and not a coloured clay as the original ones would have been. i'm sure they will still look very nice though. Also I don't know who you are getting to lay them, but unless they are laid with no spacers, ie, no gaps between tiles at all, they will not look right. For some reason modern tilers can't seem to fathom laying tiles without gaps between them, and it seems the modern way is the bigger gaps the better in many cases, but it isn't right in this case. The recieved wisdom is that tiles butted up edge to edge will crack if there is any movement of the underlying structure, but I wonder which tilers have actually witnessed this! If you ever go to London have a look at the underground station walls, they have glazed ceramic tiles (so not as strong as the thick high bake floor tiles) and in the stations that are largely original, you can see tiles laid edge to edge and ony a very few have cracked in probably over 100 years in a very high traffic environment. If you want a nice effect, please request that they are laid edge to edge with no gaps, or at the very most if your tiler just won't do that, 1mm gaps with a dark grey grout. We all like pictures here, and it sounds like before and after in your case could be transformational!

 

[Elvis]

You certainly need to know if your new tiles are breathable or not, as that will direct your action on the floor. How deep was the original lime screed? What is beneath it?

The original screed was 100mm at deepest and dirt/building rubble under. The tiles are unglazed but are supposed to be sealed if indoors. I am presuming there are traditionally breathable sealers available?

 

[Elvis]

Those geometric tiles were laid edge to edge with almost no gap and cement grout, so I don't believe they were ever intended as a surface through which water could pass and evaporate. I'd imagine the hall is a strip that runs from the front door away from the front wall of the house against the party wall and maybe has a dog leg half way down. As there is little of it in contact with the outside wall I can't see the need for it to be "breathable". I would think that a cement floor as a base would be very good in this situation. Could you not have kept the original tiles and re laid them? I believe the "Original style" tiles (which is a brand name isn't it?) are glazed with a matt glaze, and not a coloured clay as the original ones would have been. i'm sure they will still look very nice though. Also I don't know who you are getting to lay them, but unless they are laid with no spacers, ie, no gaps between tiles at all, they will not look right. For some reason modern tilers can't seem to fathom laying tiles without gaps between them, and it seems the modern way is the bigger gaps the better in many cases, but it isn't right in this case. The recieved wisdom is that tiles butted up edge to edge will crack if there is any movement of the underlying structure, but I wonder which tilers have actually witnessed this! If you ever go to London have a look at the underground station walls, they have glazed ceramic tiles (so not as strong as the thick high bake floor tiles) and in the stations that are largely original, you can see tiles laid edge to edge and ony a very few have cracked in probably over 100 years in a very high traffic environment. If you want a nice effect, please request that they are laid edge to edge with no gaps, or at the very most if your tiler just won't do that, 1mm gaps with a dark grey grout. We all like pictures here, and it sounds like before and after in your case could be transformational!

I spoke to the guys at Cornish Lime as did my friend who lime plastered the lounge. One said limecrete the other concrete! I do think it will dry out now I have dropped the level outside. My issue with concrete is the use of a membrane. The wooden soleplate to the lounge side had some rot and I'm a little worried about that. The tiles are coloured clay and traditionally manufactured so are perhaps breathable.

I'll be laying the tiles and will not use spacers and butt them together as you say. The floor had sagged, had 40% broken tiles. As they were butted and the cement layer (I am guessing a lime cement adhesive mix with cement grout) directly beneath rock hard many more got damage while removing. It's a difficult decision but not enough were salvageable to keep it affordable.

At this point it seems concrete upto the original front door position (which we intend to reinstate) and limecrete (without all the insulation) in the porch area. This will allow us to leave those tiles unsealed. Do we still use a membrane under the cement?

 

[Elvis]

Thanks for the replies. While we are having to carry out these works we have decided to restore the front door to it's original position set back from the front to recreate an internal porch.

I'll put some pictures on tomorrow.

 

[plasticpigeon]

Your concrete limecrete hybrid sounds a good idea. I'm surprised a Victorian house has a sole plate. I'm glad to hear the tiles are through coloured. I'm still not convinced by their breathability though.

Ty Mawr invented the modern limecrete floor and they use the "hardcore" which is either foamed glass or leca as both insulation and as a moisture buffer that can absorb vapour but doesn't draw up liquid through capillary action. This means that there needn't be much evaporation from the floor surface in order to keep ground moisture levels reasonable, or at least this is what their technical dept told me. Would you be planning to dig down far enough to install the aggregate? If it was my house I would probably not bother with a membrane.

 

[Elvis]

Sorry I mean the stud wall between the hall and lounge has a timber sole plate which has seen some rot but air bricks are all clear now so hopefully no more.

A friend who is a ground works specialist living in France mentioned using compacted 40mm gravel as a sub base. He says that's traditional over there. A guy at Cornish Lime said similar. 40mm gravel inside and out and put a raft on concrete raft top of that. Time, money and depth of floor look like ruling out limecrete at this stage.

When I can get to the laptop I'll upload some pictures.

 

[mims&pip]

Hi Elvis! Welcome from me too

Just wanted to add re: the laying of encaustic or similar tiles, that I wholeheartedly concur with what Plastic Pigeon says insofar as laying them edge to edge. I laid reclaimed tiles (from the church where my parents were married ) in the hallway at a previous house (see pics 6 & 8 in this link to the sold details for our house - http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=37983133&sale=525769&country=england) and being young and inexperienced at the time I used spacers which somewhat spoiled the period effect.

Pip and I were still very pleased with them of course, especially as being a girl I had never done anything like that before :roll: - mine were laid on marine ply over the existing floorboards, the ply being screwed at six inch intervals iirc.

Looking forward to seeing pics of your transformation

Mims x

 

[TheForge]

Hi Elvis,

With recycled foamed glass as an aggregate you can squeeze a limecrete floor into about 175mm depth excluding surface coverage. To meet the thermal standards of building regs (if the building inspector can be convinced limecrete meets them at all) you might need a bit more.

When we replaced a concrete floor in our kitchen we got the recycled foamed glass from Mike Wye and they were very helpful in working out U values, depths/areas etc.