Rather than move we are thinking of re-jigging some of the rooms downstairs to make better use of space ie changing the bathroom into a utility room and the current utility/storeroom into a dining room with a bathroom at the end. There won’t be any extension works but a couple of windows will need to be installed and a couple of doorways bricked up. May need new flooring and some plastering. I presume LBC will need to be obtained. Anything else? I have emailed the CO but no reply as yet. It’s quite a small project but would it be prudent to appoint an architect particularly one with experience of Listed buildings?
- Thread starter cazzz
- Start date
MatthewC
Member
- Messages
- 1,733
- Location
- Central/South England
Hi cazzz
Yes, you will want separate applications for LBC and Building Control as well for most of that. An architect is useful if the design gets complicated but there's no requirement as such. If you have a good builder then they will let you know if it's all too much for them, like if there's something structural. Equally, if you are doing it yourself, it depends on how good you think you are!
I discovered late in the day that the CO just didn't like architects and preferred people who did it themselves... :roll:
Matthew
Yes, you will want separate applications for LBC and Building Control as well for most of that. An architect is useful if the design gets complicated but there's no requirement as such. If you have a good builder then they will let you know if it's all too much for them, like if there's something structural. Equally, if you are doing it yourself, it depends on how good you think you are!
I discovered late in the day that the CO just didn't like architects and preferred people who did it themselves... :roll:
Matthew
Thanks Matthew. I would prefer not to bother with an architect as it will be the simplest of designs! Have a builder coming round this afternoon - he has done all the work on a friend’s rectory so seems to know what he’s doing - and another one tomorrow. Once I have an idea as to potential cost I can decide whether I can afford it or whether I have to keep the cottage on the market 
MatthewC
Member
- Messages
- 1,733
- Location
- Central/South England
Don't forget that you need to make sure that your builder understands the precise nature of how you want it done, so to an extent you need to oversee his work (as the architect should if you employ one). If he quotes for lime mortar and then uses cement and hydrated lime (because it's cheaper and easier), then it's you who is liable in the unlikely event of the CO wanting it done properly.
Flyfisher
Member
- Messages
- 10,201
- Location
- Norfolk, UK
cazzz said:Once I have an idea as to potential cost I can decide whether I can afford it or whether I have to keep the cottage on the market
For the minor-sounding alterations described I'd be surprised if moving house would be a cheaper alternative once all the myriad fees and other costs are added up.
It would be interesting to know how things eventually work out.
Flyfisher
Member
- Messages
- 10,201
- Location
- Norfolk, UK
cazzz said:
Much will depend on your DIY skills/inclinations but for those minor-sounding alterations it is certainly not necessary to involve professional architects or building control. I'd wait until you've met with your CO as they will be the really key person in all of this, not only in terms of approving the proposed changes (which don't sound particularly problematic) but also in terms of what advice they might be able to give about how to conduct the works. Remember that many COs have professional architect backgrounds themselves and if you're lucky your CO might be the best source of free advice available.
Our CO was extremely helpful and supportive with our first two LBC applications, which were basically repairs and minor alterations - replacing some windows, moving some walls, relocating a kitchen into another room opening up fireplaces, etc. I sketched out the proposed works for the LBC process, wrote the necessary descriptions and submitted everything myself. I didn't involve an architect or building control and did most of the work myself with the assistance of experienced friends and professional builders as I felt necessary.
That's not to say there's anything wrong with appointing an architect and tasking them to handle everything if you prefer, just to point out that it's not actually necessary.
Many thanks for your reply, Flyfisher. I’m sure I’ll be fine without an architect etc. I did contact a couple initially but they’ve been so slow to reply I’d rather not bother.
I’m in south Cambs and have to pay nearly £200 for pre-application advice. Not sure whether to do this or go straight to application.
I’m in south Cambs and have to pay nearly £200 for pre-application advice. Not sure whether to do this or go straight to application.
Flyfisher
Member
- Messages
- 10,201
- Location
- Norfolk, UK
Bad luck on the pre-application advice fee. I've lost count of the number of times our CO has come out to visit and give expert advice on request. It seems the least they could do for my free custodianship of a national heritage asset!
I suppose you could save the £200 by making a full application at no cost (unless Cambs charges for that as well?) and get the advice anyway - well at least a yes or no.
Alternatively if you're confident that the proposed alterations will not "affect the character of a listed building as a building of special architectural or historic interest" then you could take a lead from our friendly forum CO and not bother with LBC at all. :wink:
http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=222367#p222367
Not that I'm recommending that of course!
I've lost count of the number of times our CO has come out to visit and give expert advice on request. It seems the least they could do for my free custodianship of a national heritage asset!I suppose you could save the £200 by making a full application at no cost (unless Cambs charges for that as well?) and get the advice anyway - well at least a yes or no.
Alternatively if you're confident that the proposed alterations will not "affect the character of a listed building as a building of special architectural or historic interest" then you could take a lead from our friendly forum CO and not bother with LBC at all. :wink:
http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=222367#p222367
Not that I'm recommending that of course!
Gareth Hughes
Member
- Messages
- 2,741
- Location
- In the wilds of East Anglia
cazzz said:Ha ha ha yes they charge for the application as well
They can't. There's no fee for LBC, assuming there's no element of the work that also requires Planning Permission.
Gareth Hughes
Member
- Messages
- 2,741
- Location
- In the wilds of East Anglia
Well, they need to be to (metric) scale, 1.100 or 1.50 usually, and to adequately describe everything that's proposed. Bulking it out with informative photos can be a good idea, and there'll need to be a written explanation too, nothing terribly wordy but just imagine the whole bundle of pictures and words needs to explain the project to someone who has never seen the house.cazzz said:
It might be worth seeing if there are a few similar LBC applications on the council's website to see what other people have got away with submitting.
Flyfisher
Member
- Messages
- 10,201
- Location
- Norfolk, UK
I agree with Gareth insofar as the main purpose of the application is to describe the proposed works in enough detail to be understood by someone who has never seen the house.
As for how 'professional', I have no architectural or building background but for my first two LBC applications, which were mostly interior layout changes, I drew floorplans to scale though not to a specified scale. I wrote a general introduction to the project describing the basic objectives and then described each piece of work and the proposed methods and materials. I included a lot of photographs. For the new windows, I asked my joiner to provide dimensioned drawings of the various sections and they provided a hand drawn sketch, which I included in the application. In addition, the application required a 1:2500 site location plan, for which I used Google Maps and added a red circle around my house. I also had to submit a design and access statement, which sounded a bit intimidating but I found the CABE guidelines to this online and it seemed to be largely aimed at new build projects. So I used the example headings and basically stated that none of them were applicable for this application.
Both applications were approved first time. Having said that, I had discussed all the proposed works with our CO before the application and he had visited a number of times, so in that respect the application was a bit of a 'rubber stamping' exercise of what we had already discussed and informally agreed. I suppose things might not have progressed quite so smoothly had those pre-application visits and discussions not happened.
At least by the time of the second application it was possible to submit online and not have to provide TEN printed copies of everything!
As for how 'professional', I have no architectural or building background but for my first two LBC applications, which were mostly interior layout changes, I drew floorplans to scale though not to a specified scale. I wrote a general introduction to the project describing the basic objectives and then described each piece of work and the proposed methods and materials. I included a lot of photographs. For the new windows, I asked my joiner to provide dimensioned drawings of the various sections and they provided a hand drawn sketch, which I included in the application. In addition, the application required a 1:2500 site location plan, for which I used Google Maps and added a red circle around my house. I also had to submit a design and access statement, which sounded a bit intimidating but I found the CABE guidelines to this online and it seemed to be largely aimed at new build projects. So I used the example headings and basically stated that none of them were applicable for this application.
Both applications were approved first time. Having said that, I had discussed all the proposed works with our CO before the application and he had visited a number of times, so in that respect the application was a bit of a 'rubber stamping' exercise of what we had already discussed and informally agreed. I suppose things might not have progressed quite so smoothly had those pre-application visits and discussions not happened.
At least by the time of the second application it was possible to submit online and not have to provide TEN printed copies of everything!
Flyfisher
Member
- Messages
- 10,201
- Location
- Norfolk, UK
Short answer - I don't know.
However, if you ask a professional to take responsibility for your alterations then I wouldn't be surprised if they recommend a structural engineering report as well just to cover themself. It's all about avoiding any charges of negligence if anything goes wrong, and you'll be paying for it so it's an easy thing to recommend. Plus, it's the 'proper' way to do things these days so it's professionally risky for them to advise otherwise.
From what you've said about the proposed works a structural engineer certainly seems like overkill. What's the structural risk involved in bricking up a doorway? Or replacing a window? OK, Inserting a new window has structural implications but almost certainly nothing that can't be dealt with by an appropriate lintel and any competent builder would know what to use.
A couple of examples. I got LBC to open up an inglenook fireplace, a fairly standard thing to do. When I did so I discovered that the original oak bressumer had been destroyed in a fire and had been replaced by an RSJ. I wanted to remove this and replace it with a new oak bressumer, which would obviously have structural implications. I wondered if I needed to involve building control but was advised that if I did they would likely want to see a structural engineer's report proving that the replacement oak bressumer was as strong as the RSJ and since the RSJ itself was clearly larger than necessary this could mean an impractically massive piece of oak. Fortunately the burnt end remains of the original bressumer were still present and they were 9x6 inches. So I decided to simply prop the chimney breast, remove the RSJ and replace it with a 10x10 inch length of oak, on the assumption that it would be stronger than the original one that had managed to hold up the wall for around 400 years! So far, so good.
Secondly, we have an oak window that was clearly under a great deal of pressure from a collapsing rubble wall above it and it turned out that there was no lintel above the window. Again, what to do? Involve architects, structural engineers and building control or simply install a 6x6 oak lintel? Probably overkill, but certainly in keeping with the general 'scale' of the rest of the house. I'll let you guess what I did. :wink:
None of which is any recommendation about what you should do (because I'm not professionally qualified to do so), and much will depend on how easy you can sleep at night if making your own decisions compared with paying professionals for peace of mind. Just bear in mind that many (most?) period properties were built without the benefit of architects and structural engineers and building control etc, etc, so such things are certainly not absolutely necessary. In our case, the house is around 450 years old, so just imagine the level of professional supervision involved back then!
However, if you ask a professional to take responsibility for your alterations then I wouldn't be surprised if they recommend a structural engineering report as well just to cover themself. It's all about avoiding any charges of negligence if anything goes wrong, and you'll be paying for it so it's an easy thing to recommend. Plus, it's the 'proper' way to do things these days so it's professionally risky for them to advise otherwise.
From what you've said about the proposed works a structural engineer certainly seems like overkill. What's the structural risk involved in bricking up a doorway? Or replacing a window? OK, Inserting a new window has structural implications but almost certainly nothing that can't be dealt with by an appropriate lintel and any competent builder would know what to use.
A couple of examples. I got LBC to open up an inglenook fireplace, a fairly standard thing to do. When I did so I discovered that the original oak bressumer had been destroyed in a fire and had been replaced by an RSJ. I wanted to remove this and replace it with a new oak bressumer, which would obviously have structural implications. I wondered if I needed to involve building control but was advised that if I did they would likely want to see a structural engineer's report proving that the replacement oak bressumer was as strong as the RSJ and since the RSJ itself was clearly larger than necessary this could mean an impractically massive piece of oak. Fortunately the burnt end remains of the original bressumer were still present and they were 9x6 inches. So I decided to simply prop the chimney breast, remove the RSJ and replace it with a 10x10 inch length of oak, on the assumption that it would be stronger than the original one that had managed to hold up the wall for around 400 years! So far, so good.
Secondly, we have an oak window that was clearly under a great deal of pressure from a collapsing rubble wall above it and it turned out that there was no lintel above the window. Again, what to do? Involve architects, structural engineers and building control or simply install a 6x6 oak lintel? Probably overkill, but certainly in keeping with the general 'scale' of the rest of the house. I'll let you guess what I did. :wink:
None of which is any recommendation about what you should do (because I'm not professionally qualified to do so), and much will depend on how easy you can sleep at night if making your own decisions compared with paying professionals for peace of mind. Just bear in mind that many (most?) period properties were built without the benefit of architects and structural engineers and building control etc, etc, so such things are certainly not absolutely necessary. In our case, the house is around 450 years old, so just imagine the level of professional supervision involved back then!