Alarmed by heavy plaster work

[JoceAndChris]

It's finally arrived, my new ceiling rose and coving. It was a very hard decision to make as I'm permanently installing something that was never there and generally fancyfying the cottage, but, it's so lovely! (http://www.bondsplastermouldings.co.uk/floral_cornice_1580.html) I just think if they could have, they would have - same as showers, electric lights etc (I know this is a very dangerous premiss for working on a period property).

Ethics aside, I'm slightly concerned by the weight of it; I can't lift the package it's come in. Has anyone screwed and glued things onto 200 year old reed ceilings before? Will it be strong enough?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

It's finally arrived, my new ceiling rose and coving. It was a very hard decision to make as I'm permanently installing something that was never there and generally fancyfying the cottage, but, it's so lovely! (http://www.bondsplastermouldings.co.uk/floral_cornice_1580.html) I just think if they could have, they would have - same as showers, electric lights etc (I know this is a very dangerous premiss for working on a period property).

Ethics aside, I'm slightly concerned by the weight of it; I can't lift the package it's come in. Has anyone screwed and glued things onto 200 year old reed ceilings before? Will it be strong enough?

There's only one way to find out... :wink:

 

[Flyfisher]

We had some heavy cornice professionally fitted to a ceiling in a previous house and the fixing process was quite an eye-opener to me as I'd only ever handled the basic stuff before, which can be simply glued in place. It was a 3-man job to manhandle the cornice and hold it in place while being fixed - anything less and I think it would have flexed too much and broken into pieces.

If it was me, I'd get someone experienced in such things to fix it in place. But whatever you do, I doubt it'll be sufficient to rely on your reed ceiling - it'll have to be fixed into the actual joists, or perhaps into boards sitting above the joists, so the weight is supported by the joists.

Good luck.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh gawd. I was hoping for "There, there, it'll be OK". But thanks for both of your valued responses.

I hear what you're saying about getting professionals in Flyfisher. If I could find someone sensitive, and intelligent, prepared to spend 2 hours on each section with the delicacy of a butterfly and the strength of an ox I might be prepared to let them in. But I don't trust anyone! It's going to have to go on poor old Chris' Things to Do list. He's done lots of ceiling roses with me helping, it's scary, but exciting. (what has it come to in my life that I find the screwing up of a ceiling rose the most exciting of events. :roll: )

Just to clarify - cornice turns a corner- right? This is coving, which needs mitred ends but no cornice. The room is a plain square. Apologies if I've got the terminology wrong.

 

[MdB]

Cornice = ornate, coving = plain? - It looks that way if you do a google image search.

However, this is what I think of when you say cornice. Not something you want to walk on top of or something you want to find above you when reaching the top of a climb.

Generally not very well fixed into position....

 

[hoppy]

On a centre piece that diameter you would be able to span 2 joist to screw into, You would need to take care when tightening the screw's, i suspect that it has been cast using chopped strand and not hessian, if that is the case if you over tighten the screw's you will split the cast...

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks Hoppy. It certainly looks like it's made of Chopped Strand. We will be careful with the screws, as I mentioned, we've nailed ceiling roses in every sense. It's the cornice/coving that's very new to us, and yes, it's stupidly fragile. In just carrying a piece ever so gently today it's snapped in the middle where it's flexed. According to the website, though, you aren't to worry about that and just have to make good with plaster.

Mdb, are you in the ocean?

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm not entirely sure of the exact terms but I was using 'cornice' to mean something much bigger and heavier than simple coving. Anyway, it sounds like Joce has already discovered how easy it is to break

 

[hoppy]

[It's the cornice/coving that's very new to us, and yes, it's stupidly fragile. In just carrying a piece ever so gently today it's snapped in the middle where it's flexed. According to the website, though, you aren't to worry about that and just have to make good with plaster]...Bit late to advise now but,,, you should always carry cornice "On Edge"..

 

[Cloudscape]

Bit late to advise now but,,, you should always carry cornice "On Edge"..

I think Joce was 'on edge'. :wink: Shame the cornice wasn't. :|

 

[JoceAndChris]

Fortunately Chris came home and did his usual "don't be such a silly mouse, leave it with me" speech so the upshot is I get to swan off to Brussels with my friend whilst he battles with it alone- hurrah! There have to be some perks to being female.

It's all wrapped in blankets in the dining room, I'll tell Chris to handle it "on edge".

You'd think that after a few hundred years of making this stuff they'd have figured out a way to make it less fragile. You can buy the plastic version I suppose, it's a bit naff though. Maybe the beauty is the fragility... I saw a wooden version once. Anyone tried that?

 

[hoppy]

When its made properly,, it is very strong and easy to handle (sorry for blowing my own trumpet), When we make ours.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Hoppy - I'll definitely look into your product next time.

This job has gone sort of OK, though I've driven myself to distraction caulking all the gaps today. The weight of the plasterwork has not compromised the structure or integrity of the ceiling, thankfully, and the pieces have adhered. Chris says it would have been completely impossible without his electric sliding mitre saw, yet another ornamental tool for the house. :roll:

You can see that becasue the wall was so wonky we had to cut it into lots of sections:

I'm worried that 2 coats of sealant and 3 coats paint won't cover the joins, what do you think? I can't see any joins in my original Georgian cornice.

 

[hoppy]

the trouble with "Online" companies is they sell you mouldings as a "DIY" product. The simple truth is there not, with all the best will in the world any Diy'er would struggle. If it would have been made correctly, you would have been able to "ease" it over the bumps without the need to cut it. To lose the joint you need to "stop" it in with casting plaster

 

[JoceAndChris]

I'm sure you're right hoppy. The decision to DIY was based on budget alone. (and maybe a touch of bloody-mindedness that we WILL do evertyhting ourselves. :roll: ) The mouldings (including ceiling rose) cost about £200, and of course our labour cost nothing. I can't imagine a proper professional job would have been anywhere near as low cost. But the success of it depends on whether or not I find it a bodged butchery. I'll reserve judgement until it's painted.

Would you mind PM ing me the details of your company? I don't see it in your profile. Many thanks!

 

[Flyfisher]

I don't think some of those joints will be hidden with paint alone. Consider the scale of any cracks with the detail of the moulding; if the paint is thick enough to hide the cracks it might also be thick enough to 'soften' the detail, which I'm sure is not what you want. I would have a go at filling the cracks and joints before painting, maybe leaving the filler a bit proud and then sanding back when fully dry.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks FF, you're right of course, but - aaaaaaagh - and b*ll*cks! This filling is driving me insane!

 

[Flyfisher]

I know what you mean, but it'll be worth it in the end. Good to see you're using the correct technical terms though. :wink:

 

[Nigel Watts]

Joce

You are doing a great job. Keep going and dont loose heart. With anything you do yourself you eyes are initially drawn to all the tiny flaws that you know are there. But when its all done and the memory of the process fades a little you wont notice them, and very few other people will either.

:You'd think that after a few hundred years of making this stuff they'd have figured out a way to make it less fragile

This method of making large runs of cornice off site then having to transport and fix them in place is comparatively recent. It was introduced during the later 19th Century but didnt become universal until the mid 20th. So there isn't quite the history you might think. Most cornices up until the second world war would have been run in situ. Most would have been straight mouldings, which lend themselves to this, but even ornamented cornices could be made largely insitu, with the straight bits run first and then short pieces of precast ornament added later. This is how they were made in my 1840 house. The precast sctions are no more than six inches long.

I have never run a cornice in situ, but I would love to have a go. It must be very satisfying if you can master the technique.

 

[Nigel Watts]

I would have a go at filling the cracks and joints before painting, maybe leaving the filler a bit proud and then sanding back when fully dry.

In my experience of many hours up ladders repairing cornices, getting the filler right is tricky, but can make a big difference. I prefer a filler which allows you to model the shape you need, and create a smooth finish, while still wet. I find this gives the best quality finish and it removes the need for rework such as sanding.

Polyfilla and related products are much too sticky for this, although sometimes this stickiness is what you need. I found that lime putty mixed with plaster of Paris, applied to a pre-wetted surface, worked best, but even this was not the easiest stuff to handle as it goes off quickly, shrinks as it does so, and does not always stick.