Advice need on cost of roof with potential dryrot

[Enazza]

Hi, I desperately need some advice.
My partner & I are interested in bidding for a 2 storey Victorian 3 bed terrace in SE London (sealed bid). It is in a very poor state of repair, requiring replastering (taking some walls back to brick work), ceilings, electrics, heating, replacement of sash windows & doors – the whole lot.
This is fine; however my main concern is damp on the first floor, and a potential leak/dry rot problem in the roof.

We asked a builder to view the property with us, and offer some advice re. the amount & cost of work to be done. There are obvious signs of damp coming from an unknown cause in the roof, some of the first floor ceilings are ‘bowed’, several first floor walls are damp (coming from ceiling downwards), one of them showing superficial signs of dryrot (superficial in that the wall doesn’t crumble and the surrounding woodwork i.e. cornicing & skirting is still solid).

Whilst we would like to have a full survey done, in some ways this seems slightly futile as there is no loft hatch and so even a surveyor won’t be able to inspect the roof internally. We cannot determine the extent of damage unless we purchase the property and start making holes in ceilings.

The quote we had from the builder seemed way overpriced – at £55k this would cover ‘some roofwork excl. dryrot treatment’ / stripping & rebuilding of walls & ceilings / blocking a kitchen doorway and opening out another / removal of outdoor toilet / electrics / central heating / plumbing.

Can anyone offer any advice on the above quote, and offer an estimate for the cost of roof work based on a ‘worst case scenario’, involving scaffolding, rafters, dryrot treatment, insulation, replacement of slates etc

We are in a position where if the roofwork could cost in excess of £20k we would not want to pursue this property any further, and hence won't get a survey done.

Any help would be greatly appreciated (approx dimensions below)

Lounge 25 x 12 ft
Kitchen 21 x 9
Bed 1 15 x 11
Bed 2 11 x 10
Bed 3 10 x 8

 

[Iain P]

Somebody better qualified may be able to give you greater advice, but it is extremely hard to comment on figures without better information on size, location, ease of access scope of work etc, Having said that in an absolute worst case I could see you spending £ 20k+ to get the roof done if it all has to be stripped down, timbers removed, walls partially rebuilt, ceilings and guttering replaced, chimneys repaired etc.

The difficulty is it may not be bad at all - we just had a major reroof done and although it was letting in water everything was structurally sound. Unfortunately until someone can get into the loft to inspect you have no idea what you might find and if financially you are tight you may be better off with something you can scope better.

Alternatively, if it is a sealed bid and you are really keen, why not just reduce your bid to give yourself some contingency? Still something of a risk depending on your tolerance for such.

If you do go ahead make sure you get plenty of quotes on the roof, preferably from NFRC or FMB registered firms and on a like for like basis. Our quotes ranged from £ 20 - 55k (its a big roof!).

 

[Enazza]

Hi, thanks for the advice. Seems either way it's one of those situations where you just don't know till you get there.
Unfortunately there's no option to reduce the bid. Our original bid was over the guide price, and frustratingly when the bid ended, the vendor decided to raise the guide price by £5k and put it back on the market for another round, which ends this Friday.

Having just called the agent, they won't allow a surveyor to access the property for more than an hour (whilst the other potential bidders are scouting the place too) - this is insufficient time for an adequate homebuyers report or valuation.

Think it may be time to call it quits!

 

[middi]

THe best way to approach the situation is to determine what is the property likely to be worth once all the problems are sorted out and ready for occupation.

You deduct the cost of the selected quotation of repairs which have been obtained by more than one local builder, this will then give you a guide as to how much you should be prepaired to bid.

If your bid is turned down, hard luck, better luck next time .

It is very difficult to evaluate over correspondence how much a complete refurbushement and repairs should cost for a semi victorian cottage without a concise surveyors report, which also depends on how much of the work is to be done by yourself , if any.

The worst scenario would be that you are left with bare walls and no roof, in which case £ 55,0000 is good value for money.

 

[thiambal]

I wouldn't go spending money on a home buyers report hoping to get a full assessment of the state of the roof and any indication of the cost of replacement.

More than likely the surveyor will just tell you that you need to get specialist advice, and any price guidance for any work they give you are very general and based some myhtical averages.

If you know that there is dry rot you would be better spending your hour and money getting a specialist to look over the timbers - bearing in mind that this may be difficult with people living there and the rooms and loft filled with furniture etc.

Equally, if you are not in Scotland, your sealed bid would not be binding (i assume) and you could withdraw following a later survey and inspection - what is the point in spending money now if you may not win the bid.

 

[middi]

If the vendor is prepaired to withdraw from the sale because he things the house is worth more than the highest bidder is willing to offer, play his own game offer £ 500, 000 , string him along and then tell you will only go ahead if is £50,000 . OOOps you have got a " 0 " mixed up.

Just forget about it, it apeears to be the best solution.

 

[Matt Green]

From the sounds of it you needn't spend any money on dry rot treatment. Fix the roof and the fungus will die. If it really is dry rot the damage is likely to be confined to the ceiling laths (cheap timber containing a high proportion of sapwood).

Given that it sounds like the ceilings are in a poor state anyway and will need repair/replacement in places, there probably won't be much left for the fungus to feed on whilst the roof dries out. Doesn't sound like much of a problem. Let it dry and repair the damage as you can.

The #1 priority is getting the roof watertight. Get quotes for that and the rest will sort itself out.


Matt Green

 

[Penners]

several first floor walls are damp (coming from ceiling downwards), one of them showing superficial signs of dryrot (superficial in that the wall doesn’t crumble and the surrounding woodwork i.e. cornicing & skirting is still solid).

If the woodwork is still solid and the wall seems firm, what makes you think there's dry rot? Is it simply on the builder's say-so?

I really think you need to get at least one more quote for all the work from another builder - two would be better. This will give you an idea of whether the first one's price is reasonable, and will also get two more people's opinions about that dry rot.

Incidentally, you talk about replacement of sash windows and doors. Do they really need replacing? Repair can often be cheaper than replacement, and of course you're ultimately likely to have a more valuable building if it retains its period features. Please don't throw out anything unless it's absolutely beyond repair.

 

[Enazza]

Thanks again all for taking the time to respond.

Ok well the builder said he could see dry rot spores on one of the walls in the dampest room - pale in colour, patchy. I'll be going to the property for the last time this evening and will take some pictures which I can hopefully post on this thread. I've done some research on the internet about it, and pictures on the net are far worse than the wall I'm referring to.
He then did what was probably a typical 'builders trick' whilst we were looking at the garden - he put his key through the bottom part of the backdoor off the kitchen - the key went straight through the wood - "this is dry rot, you see, it goes straight through"...there was no sign of fungus, & looked like it was just weather beaten over the years.

The problem with getting more quotes is just down to limited time, today is the final viewing, and that is only for an hour.

As for the sash windows & original features - would def rather restore than replace, I just assumed that the state they were in they would need to be replaced but of course would let a professional advise on best course.

Thanks

 

[thiambal]

Get someone to check out the windows and get someone who knows what they are doing. The Ventrolla man did lots of sucking over teeth with ours and identifying rotten patches.

When we actually had them stripped back, no sign of rot at all! Should be good for another 100 years at least

 

[Matt Green]

he put his key through the bottom part of the backdoor off the kitchen - the key went straight through the wood - "this is dry rot, you see, it goes straight through

At our next staff meeting I am going to suugest throwing away our density-detecting micro-drills, fibre optic boroscopes and resistance hammer probes in favour of 2 sets of keys from a J reg Bedford pickup.


Matt Green

 

[Penners]

At our next staff meeting I am going to suugest throwing away our density-detecting micro-drills, fibre optic boroscopes and resistance hammer probes in favour of 2 sets of keys from a J reg Bedford pickup.

Yeah Matt - keep up with the latest technology, please.

 

[Penners]

he put his key through the bottom part of the backdoor off the kitchen - the key went straight through the wood - "this is dry rot, you see, it goes straight through"...there was no sign of fungus, & looked like it was just weather beaten over the years.

That's unlikely to be dry rot, which tends to occur mainly in enclosed, unventilated spaces. A rotten back door is much more likely to be wet rot.

Of course, it's still rotten! But once you've dried it out and repaired the rotten parts, you don't harbour the same risk of insidious spreading that comes with dry rot.

Judging by what you've told us about this chap, I definitely think you should be getting other quotes. I appreciate you haven't the time to do this before the bid is due, but if you do decide to bid (and you win), I would be pretty careful about using your current guy. He sounds a bit of a bullsh***er.

 

[Enazza]

Right, I have just got back from the final visit of this property and the sealed bid ends tomorrow.
I have a picture of the roof from outside - you can clearly see that it is sinking - but I have little idea of what is involved to fix this.
I also have a few pics of the offending 'dryrot' internal walls.

Does anyone know if it's possible to attach these to this thread, if not, would anyone be willing for me to email them over for some advice?

Thanks

 

[Lime]

With no disrespect intended, Enazza, I think you would be wise to forget this property.
It appears to me that several people on this thread think that your builder is not really up to the job of repairing/renovating an old and neglected property.
If you bought it you probably would end up spending a fortune and still have problems.

To buy this type of property without large finacial backing and/or a good understanding of the problems that may await you is an extremely risky proposition.

If what your builder says about dry rot is true you will have to spend a fortune.
Couple that with the very shady/dodgy method of business the vendor and agent are engaging in I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

There are plenty more fish in the sea.

 

[NT]

I'm unclear what is dodgy about the present builder. If his key went thru the wood its rotten... is that wrong? Doesnt mean you need a new door of course, but rot does mean some work.

Roof sagging means the roof structure is inadequate to hold the roof up, and is seriously defective. You'll need to budget a fair amount for that. Since you dont know whats up there but you do know it needs major work, I'd budget for a complete new roof. From the leaky state you describe, it probably will need it.

Vendor's tactics seem to me to indicate they have something to hide, a house in a bad way yet they dont give you time to survey it! So I would approach the property with a pretty cynical eye, and any bid would be definitely on the low side. Expect a hidden problem, maybe not a small one.

I assume youve had a search done. Regular flooding is quite a hit on property value.

Dont forget to knock off your offer not just the many costs you'll face, but also money for the many months you'll spend on the property. I might be quite wrong on this, but I just get the feeling you might be considering significantly overbidding.


NT

 

[Matt Green]

If what your builder says about dry rot is true you will have to spend a fortune.

Dry rot should never cost a fortune to deal with assuming you want to live in a water tight house. Stop the and let the house dry and the fungus will die as long as it hasn't found another moisture source (in reality this can be abridged to: don't let it spread to ground level). I certainly wouldn't let dry rot stop me fom buying a house.*

Timber repairs will cost a bit of money, that much is true, but from the sounds of it this is not a serious problem.

Incidently, the odds of a lack of ventilation starting a dry rot attack are long. Really long. Theoretical, even. Not that it's not good practice and wont save you from a number of other issues though.


Matt Green
*mine is not an objective view, I realise.

 

[Moo]

... a 2 storey Victorian 3 bed terrace in SE London


I've been following this thread with great interest, and still can't work out what's so special about this house. SE London's crammed full of really solid 2 storey 3-bed terraces.
If I were in your position I'd have long since turned my back on this dodgy house and dodgy owner.

 

[Enazza]

With no disrespect intended back to Lime, 'my builder' was simply a first quote, and I would never be so unwise as to pursue my first and only quote, regardless of how up to the job they did or did not seem.

Your quote...

If you bought it you probably would end up spending a fortune and still have problems.

...is just as, if not more ambiguous than some of the builders unqualified comments.

To clarify, this is surplus property, being sold by a Bank, hence the reason for property being put back on the market. The bank wants the highest price, and they are fully entitled to decline any bids made at any stage.

I understand that there are big risks associated with this property, which is why I came to this forum for advice, all of which, is appreciated.

True there are many 2/3 bed victorian terraces in SE London, none of which come cheap. Many are unsympathetically renovated with cheap laminate flooring, upvc double glazing, few period features - no character. I specifically wanted somewhere that needed work, finding ones that do (& also match location requirements etc) is quite tough.
This property is not so special, but it is an opportunity.

I must admit that given the breadth of opinion, ranging from Lime's spending a fortune on dryrot to Matt's pragmatic get the house watertight & the rest will follow - I am still slightly confused!

Anyway, to conclude, I am walking away. Had I pursued, I would've bid at a level where price + cost to renovate + contingency = expected MV when complete. Then if after a survey & valuation it turned out that I had overbid the current MV, I would've backed out.

 

[Penners]

I'm sure this is a disappointment for you, Enazza, but on balance I think you've done the right thing.

When it comes to financing the restoration of an old property, the biggest worry is not the problems you can see. It's the ones you can't.

I'm sure everyone on this forum has had the same experiences as me, in this regard. You start any job, and before you know where you are, you've unearthed half a dozen completely unexpected problems.

So, I think you've made the wise choice. I have always found that, no matter how difficult it is to walk away from a building that you really want, it's amazing how quickly another equally desirable one comes along.

Good luck with house hunting. Let us know how you get on.