Addling land to G2 listed building, does it become listed?

[guydewdney]

Hello fellow sufferers,

I have a G2 large building in Exmoor NP (and a conservation area, just to add insult) - I wish to buy a field from my neighbour. If I add this land to my land, does any development on it require LBC or just PP ??

Listed in 2016, DURING the purchace !

 

[Cubist]

Any land added to a listed property does not become an element of the 'curtilage' of that property - the term 'curtilage' typically means a single enclosed area of land immediately around the listed building and any changes within that space will usually require CO approval as well perhaps as other PP and LBC consents.. However, that definition may change should you remove any boundary fences or hedges that currently separate the land from the extant curtilage. Your solicitor should confirm this, one way or the other, in writing as part of the purchase and title transfer. Any development you may consider for that new land would require the usual LBC and PP approvals in the usual manner.

 

[mardinor]

I once spend thousands asking a Barrister for a legal opinion on exactly that scenario. Long story short, it depends. Only a legal case will resolve for certain, I suspect. Curtilage seems to be a matter of judgement. Your bigger issue may be whether you have a change of use agreement, if the field was previously classed as agricultural.

 

[Cubist]

This old place is bisected by a Bridleway which is also a Public Right of Way and over the years we have seen two changes of the CO - all three of whom had different opinions of what fell within or without the curtilage. According to the first it was everything within the Land Registry Boundaries, the second claimed it only included the formal gardens but dithered over the hillside beyond the vegetable patch and the third finally conceded to all the land to the West of the bridleway.

As stated before - you must get written clarification from your solicitor before you close the deal and maybe run it past your local CO before signing the contracts.

 

[Flyfisher]

Why 'add' the purchased land to the already owned land?

Our G2* house has one legal title but I also have an adjoining paddock with a completely separate title.
The paddock is not listed and as far as I'm concerned there's no need to combine the two titles into one.

As for building on the paddock, I'm pretty sure it would need PP but not LBC. However, I'm also pretty sure that any planning application would have to take into account the proximity of a listed building, regardless of whether it sits on a legally separate bit of land, though what that would mean in practice could be almost anything because of the apparent vagueness and subjectiveness of 'curtilage rules'.

 

[CliffordPope]

I've heard all opinions by apparently knowledgible people range from the curtilage is what is, and if it changes slowly and surreptitiosly over time then the curtilage changes too, through to the curtilage is fixed for all time and is impossible to change. The word has been misused by planners and everyone else and so now it means whatever you want and are willing to pay for to get a specific court ruling.

 

[guyd]

Its about solar panels. The building next door (1722 water mill, still operating as a wheel, albeit generating electricity not flour) is NOT listed (!) but my 1911 building IS.

I asked for an opinion about adding solar to a field, which I own, next door to the neighbours field, which has solar installed in it. I was told that I need to get:-
Full topographical survey of entire 8 acre estate (quote for £7,000)
Full environmental impact survey (£5,000)
Full plans and impact survey of the cable route and impact on trees from a tree surveyor (unknown - guess £2,000)
Full plans of the solar array
in order to submit a PRE application - any application without a Pre App would automatically be denied.

considering the cable lay is going to be circa £5K alone, plus panels being £30k+ the extra costs drive this past viability (electric bill is circa 1500pcm)

So - I thought, if I buy the field next door, after the neighbour has been granted planning to extend their existing array, then I wouldnt have to do all that rubbish......

Current officer belives all land within the Land Reg at time of listing ( only in 2016 ) is curtilage listed.

 

[Flyfisher]

The water mill sounds interesting. It's not near Bridgwater, Somerset is it? I only ask because I stayed there a couple of years ago and a 15kW generator had been added to the water wheel which provided all the electtricity for the mill, some airbnb cottages and plenty left over to sell for a tidy income. But I digress.

I understand the permitted development rules for solar PV were changed recently to make such things easier, including ground arrays, though I'm not aware of the details. No doubt there's all the information online somewhere.

As for £5k to lay the cable(s), how long will they be? My PV ground array required 110m of cable but a local 'man-with-a-mini-digger' dug the required trench in one day for £300, so a £5k cost implies a very long route indeed. Also, I'm not aware of any rules about digging a trench on your own land and unless any nearby trees have TPOs then there's nothing to stop you felling them (not that I'm suggesting you should!), which makes a 'tree impact survey' seem somewhat pointless. I've dug a number of substantial trenches over the years for a new mains gas supply, replacing overhead power cables with an underground supply and new surface water drains - all without any planning or LBC applications (but with the knowledge of our CO). My defence, should I ever need one, is that these works have improved the setting of the house and the solar PV array (not visible to any neighbours) has significantly reduced my carbon footprint, which is what we're all supposed to be doing, so why would the local council wish to make such things as difficult and expensive as possible?

 

[CliffordPope]

significantly reduced my carbon footprint, which is what we're all supposed to be doing, so why would the local council wish to make such things as difficult and expensive as possible?

Ha ha - good question.
Because institutionally that is what they do. Forget climate "emergency" - control - their control- is all they know.

 

[Glenn586]

I once spend thousands asking a Barrister for a legal opinion on exactly that scenario. Long story short, it depends. Only a legal case will resolve for certain, I suspect. Curtilage seems to be a matter of judgement. Your bigger issue may be whether you have a change of use agreement, if the field was previously classed as agricultural.

Was it just land or buildings? I ask because I have just started looking to challenge curtilage listings of outbuildings on our land.

 

[mardinor]

Was it just land or buildings? I ask because I have just started looking to challenge curtilage listings of outbuildings on our land.

Land and change of use. Bought adjoining land, previously part of the original garden but overgrown for 50 years so classed as agricultural. Not listed, but curtilage relevant to me for adding non-residential garden outbuildings