Acrow props and inglenook advice...

[xanthe]

Work continue on my inglenook fireplace - I've removed quantities of modern concrete chunks and layers of gloss paint. I have a big tub of klingstrip en route to deal with the back wall!

The main area I'm working on at the moment is the right hand alcove and the little window that was probably originally either an oven or a salt cupboard.

Thrown up a few surprises - The inset sill below the window (big enough to sit on) turns out to be a whacking great piece of oak. There are burn holes in it (of the bored child variety I think) and a large chunk of metal (not rusty). I've stripped around 8 layers of gloss off and I'm planning to beeswax it up and leave it as bare wood rather than repaint.

The alcove has also been interesting.

To describe it, there is a large oak seat, brick walls with lime plaster on the bottom half and daub and plaster at the top.

Outside of the alcove is a small brick arch (above is normal brickwork and daub); arch is one brick deep and then goes into a half-domed section made (as far as I can see) of daub and plaster with bits of roof tile shoved in. That butts up against a flat "ceiling" which is another slab of oak. (The other alcove is completely different, just a very simple box)

All of this has been covered in chunks of cement, expanding foam filler and gypsum and then the gloss paint layers.

I've just about finished getting the modern stuff off. I'll then photograph it all.

I'm planning to repair the daub and then lime plaster the whole inside of the alcoves. However...

Would you plaster over the oak "ceiling" or leave it as wood? Should I leave the arch exposed and plaster around it?

A lot of the old lime mortar and plaster is friable and in a terrible state. I imagine I need to have a stable surface to work with for the new plaster to go on, So should I photograph it all and then strip out the loose stuff?

Livia advised me to watch the arch as they weren't always well built. It seems pretty solid but I'm a tad anxious now as a lot of the work that needs doing is inside the archway and given the inglenook is nearly 10 ft it's not a small chimney above my head!

Hence I'm wondering if I should buy a couple of little acrow props for this and potential future anxiety?

Also celebrating that my CO has signed off all my current works via email as not needing LBC and is very happy with what I'm doing.

Regarding my inglenook hearth he's even suggested I get in all new bricks, lay them in NHL but butt them up without mortar.

Big relief as most of the bricks are in a dreadful state and most are modern anyway.

 

[formerly known as]

treat the repair of an inglenook very carefully; its all too easy to end up with an over restored reinterpretation of what once existed. Limewater for instance can be used to consolidate friable brickwork.

 

[Penners]

Your question about whether or not to plaster is very difficult to answer without a picture, xanthe. Why not post a "before" photo now?

As regards your thoughts on buying acrow props, the answer really depends on whether you are likely to have multiple future uses for them. If not, it's a lot of money to spend for the sake of just one job. You could just as easily support the structure with bits of timber.

In the past, here's what I have done for some temporary supports:

Cut a stout crosspiece a few mm shorter than the width of the structure you want to support - a piece of 50 x 100 stud, or something similar. Now cut a couple of similar stout posts of timber slightly shorter than the height from the floor to the underside of your crosspiece. Get someone to hold the crosspiece and the first stud in place while you hammer two timber wedges in between the top of the post the underside of the crosspiece. The wedges must approach each other from opposite sides and overlap, so that they exert an increasing up-and-down force as they are hammered together. Repeat for the second post.

I hope that explanation is understandable. If not, let me know and I'll post a drawing.

 

[xanthe]

Makes sense! Thank you Penners.

I'm going to take some pics once I get home and I'll post them up.

Formerly known as - with everything I'm trying to strip off the damage (inappropriate materials mainly) and then repair with daub and lime matched to the existing.

The one thing I can say about the chap who did all the work in the 70's is that he may have used totally the wrong things everywhere and caused a lot of damage especially to the timbers outside and the ashlar in the cellar with cement pointing, but he did leave historic material in situ, so I can see what was there.

Given the house dates to 1580 (inglenook a bit later), I'll probably never know what it looked like then but can at least match to the old stuff that is there.

I am very bemused as to why so much of the house has these weird lumps of cement plastered or painted into the walls. Everything has been made to look lumpy rather than smooth. I have 6 rubble bags of the stuff just from 3 wall panels and half an inglenook!

I want to keep things simple - it's that kind of house, but the arch is rather pretty. The oak sill matches the seats and was obviously unpainted at one time given the damage.

 

[formerly known as]

Talking of which ........ I actually found an acrow prop imbedded in the side wall of an inglenook fireplace a couple of years ago.

 

[Flyfisher]

Ah, the old 'belt and braces' approach.

'Tis a pity xanthe is not nearer as I could loan an acrow prop or two. They are not overly expensive and knowing I'd have multiple jobs for them I decided to buy a few when we started our project. It's not as if I use them too often, but when I do need them they're invaluable to have at hand - especially when fitted with a 'strongboy'.

 

[Penners]

'Tis a pity xanthe is not nearer as I could loan an acrow prop or two.

Likewise! I bought mine for a pittance from a retiring builder, who bought them from a ditto, who bought them from.... etc.

 

[MatthewC]

Get someone to hold the crosspiece and the first stud in place while you hammer two timber wedges in

Is Mrs P brave enough to do the holding for you while you do that?? :lol:

 

[Penners]

The intrepid Mrs P has performed many more hazardous duties (marrying me, for example)!!

 

[xanthe]

Photos:

 

[xanthe]

Does that arch look dodgy at all?

I may be being paranoid but thought having a prop might be a good "just in case".

I'm planning on getting a hard hat - bashed my head on enough bits of this fireplace. The bressumer has got me more than once!

On the first pic, bottom right, someone has inserted a modern brick into the jamb and tried to make it match. I'm thinking of leaving it but painting it with a soil and ash mix to blend it in a bit. Sound sensible?

 

[TheForge]

Looks pretty solid from those photos to me, maybe a bit of separation behind the arch but the arch itself looks good.

Are the bricks smoke blackened? If so I would suggest they were not plastered or harled originally.

 

[Penners]

For goodness' sake don't rely on my opinion, based on a few photos, but for what they're worth here are my thoughts.

The arch itself looks fairly sound to me. As I'm sure you know, an arch is a naturally strong structure that can support considerable loads. If it were mine, I think my only concern might be the support (or apparent lack of) that the left-hand side of the arch has. It looks as though it's bearing on some sort of cantilevered plate of ... something... (wood? stone?) that's some sort of continuation of the lintel above the little window.

If that is the situation, then I think I might decide to build up some kind of support underneath that cantilevered plate. I might consider an oak post that sits on top of the little corner of the inglenook seat (immediately above the fire extinguisher) and is attached to the brickwork of the cheek of the inglenook with frame fixings. At the top of the post I would fix a nicely moulded oak knee (like a shelf support) that projects out under the cantilevered plate, to support it.

This may be un-necessary belt-and-braces - the arch doesn't appear to show any signs of having moved or cracked - but if anything about that structure makes you nervous, it's probably that.

As regards your original question about whether or not to lime plaster, contrary to TheForge's opinion I would say the structure does appear to have been thinly plastered in the past, so if it were mine I think I would do that. You may want to mention this to your CO first, but I find it difficult to believe that he/she would object.

I wouldn't worry about the modern brick. It's part of the natural development of the house. And a word about hard hats - by all means wear one, but be aware that you will probably bang your head more often when you do! It's surprising how far above your crown they project, and in all probability you will often misjudge the amount of headroom in confined spaces! Of course, these bangs won't hurt your head, but you may find that they will jar your neck.

 

[kreyszig]

This may be a daft question, but what is supporting the left hand side of the arch?
It looks like it is hanging over the window..

edit: penners beat me to it. and I didn't see that plate!

 

[xanthe]

It's a big oak lintel and very solid

There's no movement or cracking in the arch - I was more nervous about the right hand side where it's just resting on the jamb.

Behind the arch is this half dome which appears to be entirely made of daub and lime with the odd bit of tile and wood in it. It's very friable.

Behind that is a massive piece of oak that is rock hard (it's still got a lot of paint on it so looks white in the photos).

The old plaster is only in the alcove and the window area. I've only removed modern materials.

The bricks there aren't smoke blackened. They're not beautiful and haven't been laid in a way that makes me think they were ever supposed to be on view. The daub behind the plaster isn't blackened either.

The bricks above the arch and the daub up there is all smoke blackened as are the bricks on the back wall.

The CO is happy for me to decide what to do - I suggested that I would replaster the alcoves and make a decision on the rest once it was cleaned up.

Looking at the surfaces of all the bricks, the jambs were plastered or lime washed at some point (impossible to remove all the traces) but there is no trace of any old plaster on the back wall.

To repair the walls in the alcoves, they need some new mortar and then new daub and lime plaster.

Should I photograph everything in detail and then remove all the flaky old stuff or try a preserve everything? I want it to stick to the wall properly!

I spoke to the owner of the Grade I house 4 doors down who is having the place renovated at the moment and she said the builder was only retaining old material that was in good condition. Said builder was one the CO told me to talk to.

 

[Penners]

The CO is happy for me to decide what to do - I suggested that I would replaster the alcoves and make a decision on the rest once it was cleaned up.

Then I think that's what I would do. You're obviously unconcerned about the arch. The half-dome behind it should perhaps be well repointed before you plaster, in order to stabilise it.

 

[xanthe]

I hadn't really considered the arch being dangerous until Livias mentioned them crashing down the other day - at which point I was a bit yikes :shock: and had a closer look.

On the jambs, I have raked out the old cement and some of the old lime pointing to give me a good depth for the new pointing, but on the arch I am now loath to touch the mortar/pointing at all in case it dislodges anything.

I'm pretty happy with the lintel construction above the window and how that all fits together but am still a little anxious about the other side.

The area in question is on the upper right area of the first and last photos. All the bricks in the arch are laid with the headers facing out and stretcher faces top and bottom, until you come to the right hand side when you have a brick in 'soldier position' with the headers against the arch and the jamb. It's the brick covered in white paint and in amongst the wires. There's not a lot between it and the bressumer either.

While the arch could be supported as you describe on the left, it would be very hard to do the same on the right. I'm switching to Klingstrip for the rest of the paint removal in that area as I don't want to do too much hammering in the vicinity.he

Would normal lime putty be good for mending the half-dome and the area between the bressumer and the soldier brick, or can you add things to make it stronger (if that is even needed)?

Useful to know that limewater can strengthen friable bricks - is there anything similar for consolidating old lime plaster or reattaching it when it's hanging away from the daub underneath?

 

[livias]

Do you know what is above and behind the arches? There might be something in a hidden space, Shoes are popular I believe. I found a pony saddle.

 

[xanthe]

There is space - I can feel a breeze coming through the gaps so it must go up into the chimney space. I suppose I should get an endoscope and find out what's in there!

We have some really great apotropaic marks on the bressumer - so there is a good chance of there being something.

As far as I'm aware nothing has turned up so far as the owners in the 1970's (just before our vendors) who did the last lot of work on the house left their only "find" and gave the CO details of everything. (The find was a Nuremburg token from around 1530 found in the garden).

My parents found a child's shoe in the same space in their inglenook.

Pic of the witch marks - there are lots more but these are the main ones in the centre.

 

[xanthe]

Is it dangerous to mess with the old plaster in the half-dome? If there is just empty space above I presume nothing can come falling down?