A Stitch (Not) in Time.....

[atticman]

Hello everybody, I've lurked on here for long enough, but now I've got something to post - unfortunately!!

We've been in our sandstone Georgian (1825ish) cottage, just outside Edinburgh, for about 28 years, and I've been meaning to do something about the cement repointed, part rendered, part patched chimney breast/gable end for a while now. Just wish I'd done it sooner!!

A few days ago, a stone and a chunk of render/patching detached itself from the wall with an almighty crash. Only then was the true horror revealed - stone with the consistency of soft brown sugar, bricks stuffed into gaps and cemented over, cement just for the sake of it etc etc.

/

I knew it was probably way beyond my DIY skills to fix this, and its above an existing extension, so I probably couldn't even reach it without scaffolding etc, so it was time to call in the professionals.

One sharp intake of breath later and we're getting quotes of between £3,500 and £6000 so far to demolish, replace/repair coping stones, rebuild and finish in lime mortar, repointing, rehaunching the wall/roof tile joint etc etc etc.

Not too disasterous, I thought, but the worrying thing, is that all of the stonemason's have warned us that once they've demolished the damaged stone work, it could reveal more nasties lurking in the shadows!!
I've just got this horrible vision of a half demolished gable and men standing around shaking their heads, and working out their next holiday in the Seychelles on the proceeds!!

Anyone else had experience of this kind of thing mushrooming into a major rebuild?

Anyway, I'll post more photos as the work progresses and here's hoping for Georgian workmanship defeating the gainsayers of the present!!

Phil

 

[MdB]

Welcome and Bump (new posters drop down the list for spam reasons)

A bigger picture would be a lot better if you can do it. But from what I can see it looks fairly standard stuff. There are always horrors but I now look at pile of rubble as potential rather than a problem. It really isn't that difficult to sort stone work out (most of the time).

 

[atticman]

Yes, only just worked out how to post the photo in the first place!
I'll resize it and put it up

 

[88v8]

The architect we're using for our garage told us about an extension they built against the gable wall of a listed timber-frame house which had been cement rendered, it all looked OK until the render was removed and the frame was found to have extensive rot. £50,000+ later, it was possible to proceed with the extension...

Ivor

 

[atticman]

Here's a couple of better photos of the damage.








Hopefully repairs will start towards the end of the month.

 

[Lime]

That does look nasty.
I'd be thanking my lucky stars that the top masonry/cement hadn't come down and gone right through the roof.
It looks very precarious so it still might.
What does the chimney stack in the roof void look like?

Whatever is found eventually it needs to be done for your own safety.

 

[atticman]

The way this cottage has been built, common to many, I'm sure, is an inner and outer wall of stone, with a filling of rubble, dust, etc sandwiched in between.

The inner wall appears to be fine and is probably supporting all of the structure by itself.

The gable is about 14 inches deep, so there is plenty of strength there, according to one stonemason, even with the damage to the outer wall.

Here's hoping!!

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

Atticman,

Those close-up pics are helpful. I'm guessing that the decay in this area is a longstanding problem caused by acidic combustion products combining with dampness in the masonry to effectively dissolve the stonework from the inside out. The botched repairs hav not helped.

The only real solution is to have the affected area taken down ( I don't like the term 'demolished') and rebuilt, replacing the exisitng stone with new (or good reclaimed) where necessary. The flue would benefit from being lined, especially if you intend to use it. On the plus side you are dealing with quite a small area, but on negative side there are a lot of junctions between building elements occuring in that area, and these all require careful detailing if the new work is to be durable and effective.

I suggest that you contact an architect / architectural technologist / structural engineer / building surveyor who specialises in the conservation of historic buildings. They will survey, advise, and produce a specification for the work which you can then use to obtain realistic comparitive quotes from your tradesmen. Having the detailed specification, and some sketches, will ensure that the right materials are used, and that junctions and details are correctly formed - essentially it puts you in control of the work rather than your builder. Whilst you professional will charge a fee it should be relatively modest and the quality of the outcome is likely to be much better than simply allowing your builder to do what he thinks is best. Taking this route also helps to prevent the 'mission creep' that you mention, by giving you an independent expert opinion on the scope of the works and the best way to deal with any 'horrors' that are revealed.

 

[atticman]

Andrew,

Yes, taken down does sound better than demolished!!

That is, in fact, what is going to happen. We are using a local firm of stonemasons, specialising in period property, rather than a general builder. They have worked on a lot of conservation projects in and around the Edinburgh area and come highly recommended.

We've discussed at length what is going to be done, and how, and have a scope of works as part of their quote. This includes taking down to the level of the extension roof and then rebuilding with replacement stone where necessary, replacing the copes where they are damaged beyond reuse, removing cement patching/render/pointing and replacing with lime mortar, etc etc.

We're not getting the flue relined as the fireplace that it serves has been concreted up (yes that's right, concrete not cement, or plaster or board or anything else removable without the assistance of a jackhammer) and would probably bring the wall down if we tried to open it up again! I couldn't believe it when we first moved in and gradually discovered the "modernisation" that had taken place in the house. Virtually any period features had been ripped out and patched up with plasterboard or cement and then wallpapered or painted over.

I'll keep posting pictures as the work progresses.

Phil

 

[Keithj]

I would echo the suggestion to have a qualified expert take a look. There may be further scares lurking that you'd want to know about.

The surveyor who looked at our house before we bought it wrote a book! None of the "couldn't lift the carpet so didn't check..." nonsense. He missed one bit that cost us a chunk of cash, but he found a lot that we'd never have spotted.
I'm now deep into a major restoration of a Grade I listed church, and the expert architect is earning his fee in a big way! Yet advice from experts on here has added to the knowledge and changed some of the plans, too.

 

[atticman]

Well, the work has started:

Sunday night:





Monday Night:



Tuesday night:



All I can say is "Wow", that's what I call quick and very good work!! The Edinburgh Stonemasons (http://www.theedinburghstonemasons.co.uk) are certainly impressing me so far!!

 

[DJH]

Phil, I'm surprised that they didn't take the opportunity to build in a cavity tray or make allowance for the flashing over the slate roof below unless that roof is not staying there...

Doug

 

[atticman]

Doug,

Unfortunately, the budget didn't allow for any lead work, so until funds build up again (or can de diverted from elsewhere!!) the roof/wall joint is being lime "cemented" as a temporary measure.

Although on reflection, I should have asked them to leave a rebate.......

 

[DJH]

Yes, I understand but a piece of DPC bent up at the back and just sticking out an inch or so ready to tuck the flashing under later, will do just as well. Mind you I'm assuming that it's a roof over part of the house, not a store or something where damp is not such a problem . A chase would have been good. Save you going up there on a ladder over the slates with a disc cutter later on.

Doug

 

[atticman]

Ah well, you live and learn.

I'll know the next time!!

 

[atticman]

And Wednesday: