12 elderly doors- how to restore?

[JoceAndChris]

Now the bedroom is done- hurrah!- I plan to work on the hall over winter. The main work will be to restore the 12 doors to some kind of neatness. They are a variety of ages and some are original to the cottage, I think, judging by hinges, unmarked door frames, and paint.

Many have 2 panels on the bedroom facing side and 4 on the hallway facing side. Some have had their panels made flush. Anyone know which period liked 2, which period liked 4, and which period liked none?

Is it advised to leave all changes to the structure of the door intact as a historical record? Or is it desirable to pick off the panels?

Is it advised to leave all brass knobs, bakelite knobs, unfunctioning locks in place, as all are old and some may be original. None of the mechanisms work well. Sometimes guests are unable to escape!

Is it advisable to leave paint in place, despite lumpy bumpy finish, and blurring of detail in the mouldings?

And finally, what kind of colours are appropriate for a late Georgian hall?

 

[Moo]

The only question to which I feel able to venture an answer is the one about panels and that's only a bit of personal experience, so definitely not definitive.
In our house-before-last and in our present one there are doors with two different faces - a 'posh' side and a more utilitarian one. Invariably the utilitarian side faced somewhere unimportant, like a cupboard or scullery or anywhere else that visitors were unlikely to see. The same went for ceiling mouldings and cornices in our first, pooterish, house; there was fancy stuff in the front half of the hall and in the two downstairs reception rooms, but no-where else.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks Moo! So it's not as simple as I thought then! I hadn't considered that maybe the panels were designed to be that way.

 

[Nigel Watts]

Many have 2 panels on the bedroom facing side and 4 on the hallway facing side. Some have had their panels made flush. Anyone know which period liked 2, which period liked 4, and which period liked none?

Not quite sure I understand how a door can have a different number of panels on each side. A pic or two would help. 2 panel doors seem improbable for a 19th C house.

Is it advised to leave all changes to the structure of the door intact as a historical record? Or is it desirable to pick off the panels?

In the 1960s panelled doors were often covered in hardboard to given them a more modern look (my father did his is his house) I would have no qualms about removing them, if this is what they are.

Is it advised to leave all brass knobs, bakelite knobs, unfunctioning locks in place, as all are old and some may be original. None of the mechanisms work well. Sometimes guests are unable to escape!

This is a matter of judgement. My inclination would be to tidy up the "show" side of the door - usually the Hall side - but might want to keep bakelite etc on the other sides. If you replace locks, be careful to note the position of the keyhole in relation to the handle. Often the handle and keyhole are a long way in from the edge of the door with both at the same height from the floor - unusual in modern locks, but you can still get these mechanisms. I dont know if you can get old locks repaired. It must be possible and this would seem the nicest thing to do.

Is it advisable to leave paint in place, despite lumpy bumpy finish, and blurring of detail in the mouldings?

Over the years I have changed my view on this. I used to strip everything back, but now I rarely do. A good sand and some careful repair to damaged parts can be enough.

And finally, what kind of colours are appropriate for a late Georgian hall?

This is the fun bit! You can really go to town here if you want. Sir John Soane's museum (actually the townhouse in which he lived) has some great ideas. His hall has a honey-coloured fake stone block wall, veined in green, fake black marble skirtings and stair stringers, grey-green door architraves and mahogany doors (not sure if real or superbly done fakes). Both my current 1840 and previous 1850 Islington townhouses had the same honey-coloured fake stone blocks with green veining as the bottom layer of paper when I stripped their hall walls, so this effect seems to have been very common. In my current house I have done my hall and landing doors in fake mahogany and used grey green paint for the skirtings and architraves. I chickened out of creating marble walls and used an acid yellow instead, also a Soane colour. The hall is due for repaint soon and I am now thinking deep plum. You can get stone block wallpaper, which would be an alternative (I have to carry my scheme up three storeys so dont fancy painting it all in trompe l'oeil marble by hand!

 

[Tom]

I dont know if you can get old locks repaired. It must be possible and this would seem the nicest thing to do.

Yes, you can! Our locksmith is working on the lock for the front door at the moment. It started off as an old 12" x 8" 'shell' and he's making the 6 levers for it, 3 keys and extending the bolt (all hand made and costing a fortune!!). So, yes, it can be done

 

[Nigel Watts]

http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5873&p=61426&hilit=hall#p61426

Does this work?- a link to a previous post with a pic of my hall. I've moved on from the mushroom idea and still havn't bought the lantern.

 

[Penners]

In the 1960s panelled doors were often covered in hardboard to given them a more modern look (my father did his is his house) I would have no qualms about removing them, if this is what they are.

I agree. In fact I agree with pretty well everything that Job said. I'm actually very fond of those dark brown bakelite handles. If you wanted to match them on "unimportant" sides of doors, you can still get them (in plastic nowadays, of course).

 

[Tom]

I'm actually very fond of those dark brown bakelite handles. If you wanted to match them on "unimportant" sides of doors, you can still get them (in plastic nowadays, of course).

I like the old bakelite stuff, too. Unfortunately, it doesn't match with my current house. If you want original bakelite handles, instead of modern plastic equivalents, ebay is a great place for them and they're not at all expensive

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks very much for all the great ideas above, the theme seems to be "do less" in terms of stripping back/ replacing. 8) I never want to see another can of Nitromors, I've stripped 3 doors, 6 shutters and 2 sills here, that's enough!

The 60s covering up of the panels bothers me, that's about it. And I have to solve what to do with the pencil sized gaps where joins have shrunk away from eachother over the years. Will post some pics tomorrow so you can see what I mean.

Nigel - your hall is fantastic. I am not bold enough for soane yellow, nor anywhere near as skilfull at paint techniques as you, but there's some terrific inspiration there, thanks!

 

[jocelyn plummer]

I think that stone effect paper was Colefax and Fowler-- I remember thinking about using it once. If you have the time and patience to do the effect by hand it would look great. Otherwise I would consider Cole and Sons Georgian Grey ( actually a green). There are many lovely Georgian shades to choose from, so go for your preference and of course the direction of light.

I agree with Moo about the posh side and lesser side of the doors-- have seen similar.

 

[Nigel Watts]

For a scholarly account have a look at Architectural Colour in British Interiors 1615 - 1840 by Ian C. Bristow, Yale University Press 1996. Very interesting and lots of contemporary illustrations. I have been meaning to re-read the last two chapters which cover the late Georgain period for a while. When I do I will see if I can extract a few relevent quotations.

 

[JoceAndChris]

You guys are just great! Thanks so much Joss and Nigel.

I'm very fond of grey green and think it would be nice to have that restful shade leading on to the more vibrant shades in the adjoining rooms, for example, Chris is very set on dark terracotta or plum for the dining room and I'd like yellow for the drawing room. If the doors are open you see those other colours- it's the old problem of do you create"flow" and have all you house in he same shades or do you have a yellow room, a pink room, a blue room... tricky decision.

At the moment the hall is plum, black and bright white- the plum's OK but terrible up against the bright white. I hate how the previous owner has found an awful purply shade and picked out the cornice in this.

Some pics so you can see what I mean. It's very simple in its design.

Two panel side of the door facing into bedroom:

The other side of this - 4 panels facing into hall. (Previous owner told me the Victorians liked 4 panels and added to the Georgian door on the hall side - I'm now unconvinced by this tale!)

You can just about see the cupboard door on the right here:

Here it is on the inside with bakelite knob and paint to look like wood graining:

Here's the loo door which has had its panels covered up:

And the other side of this:

And I don't know when these kind of hinges were used? Because they're all over:

As you can see this lot will keep me out of mischief for quite some time!

 

[MdB]

Those are (supposedly) self closing rising butt hinges.

These go back at least to 1825:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22rising%20butt%22%20hinge&hl=en&output=search&tbs=tl:1&tbo=1
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2445970

(Timeline is a google search option I hadn't come across before. Looks like it could be useful feature.)

 

[Nigel Watts]

How interesting. The two panel side looks the posher one to me. Someone has gone to some trouble to make those fielded panels, whereas the beads on the two panel side look more utilitarian - more like what you see on the back of shutters for example.

I suspect the doors have been turned around. Your pic from inside the room supports this hypothesis.

The modern way to hang a door is to make it open against the wall of the room, giving you a clear sight of the centre of the room as you start to open it. The old way was the opposite - the door should obscure the centre of the room as you open it. The easiest (and therefore modern commonly followed) way to switch a door from an old style to a new style hanging is to turn it round completely, so that what was previously facing the room now faces the hall. This way the handle can say where it is and the hinges can stay on the same side, albeit switched to the other face. (If am I right you should see evidence that these hinges have been moved from the 2 panel face to the 4 panel face and the shallow recess left behind will have been infilled with wood or filler). The cupboard door has clearly had its handle and lock switched over at some point.

Rising hinges are a self-closing device and modern. Sometimes insisted on by modern fire regs. I replaced mine with older style cast hinges.

I love the moose!

 

[JoceAndChris]

Fascinating stuff, MdB and Nigel. The timeline is an amazing find! I'd be reluctant to replace the hinges if they really are old - it seems inconclusive.

Your theory is interesting Nigel, that the 2 panel side is posher, but I don't think it can be right. The doors leading into the dining room and drawing room have 4 panels on both sides. these are definitely grander rooms than the bedrooms. Neither of these doors or frames show any signs of having been re-hung or tampered with.

Your quick thinking about the spare bedroom door having been rehung is right though, the frame and architrave in the first picture I posted is a replacement so no clues can be gained from that. Most of the doors open here in the method you describe as the old fashioned way. Thanks very much for your information about that.

The moose is Chris' -there's a bear too, you wouldn't believe how many arguments they've caused. :lol: My mum threatens to put them on the fire every time she comes here.

I had never read about or seen stone block wallaper - so interesting. I think that the rectangles of those stone blocks would not be right with the original diamond shaped flagstone floor though, and the colour might not present enough of a contrast? (they don't look very uniformly diamond shaped here, but up close you can see that lines were cut in those big blocks to give the illusion of smaller, diamond shaped slabs, and those lines have almost worn smooth).

Lots more thinking and research to do on this!

 

[philpjuk100]

Rising butt hinges give the door a slight self closing effect and lift the door clear of carpets,uneven floors etc,phil.

 

[Nigel Watts]

I still contend that the 2 panel side looks posher, but on rexamination of your pictures it seems clear that neither door started out life there. The bottom rail of a door should be at least as wide as the middle one. If it's much less, that's a sure sign the door has been cut down. This looks like what has been done to your spare bedroom door. The verical components should also be the same width as the top rail. In your cupboard door and the handle side of your bedroom door they are much narrower, suggesting they have been cut down in width. Second hand doors from a completely different building then?

The 2 panel / 4 panel thing still doesn't make sense to me. Has the extra vertical just been fixed in place at a later date for show I wonder, to match the 4 panel doors elsewhere?

 

[Nigel Watts]

The early reference to rising hinges is fascinating but I have never seen any very old ones. Your's are far more likely to be modern.

I have two samples of stone block wallpaper from Cole's but they must have been discontinued as they dont come up on their website. It looks a bit like this:

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thank you so much for taking time to puzzle this out!

Certainly those rising hinge thingies are not attractive, and if there is good evidence that they're post 1940 (my arbitrary cut-off point) there's a case for replacement with something more in keeping with the period.

Has the extra vertical just been fixed in place at a later date just for show I wonder, to match the 4 panel doors elsewhere?

Dad thinks this may be the case on the two bedroom doors. Where the mouldings have come adrift from one another over time it almost looks like they've been stuck on with that kind of purpose.

And here's the recently decorated part of this door.

I stripped it back to bare wood (the finger plate is wooden!) and found that the layers of paint correspond to the layers of paint in lots of other places in the cottage and even doors and windows in outbuildings. I also found a lighter section on the wood under the many layers of paint that indicated a mirror was fastened there many years ago.

Moreover, there are brass numbers on the hallway facing side of these doors from when the soldiers were billeted here in the war, (just seen in my first photo), so I'm not about to believe that the doors are a recent addition, though I accept the interior of this cottage was done cheaply and these doors may have been reused from elsewhere in the estate at the time the house was built.

 

[Nigel Watts]

The mystery deepens.

Another good book on 18th Century Decoration is by Charles Saumarez Smith called, helpfully, Eigthteenth Century Decoration. This is profusely and exclusively illustrated with contemporary prints, paintings and original designs of the period. Many of the prints were not intended to be accurate depictions of interiors, as their prime purpose is satire or humour, so a pinch of salt is needed. Flicking through, however, there are quite a few depictions of two panel doors, although these are in the minority. The dates of the prints and pictures with such doors are 1735, 1734 (x3 including a good picture by Arthur Devis), 1745, 1746, 1759, 1770, 1772 (a sweet picture by Rigaud) and 1783.

Could they be 18thC then? That would support your nice idea that they were recycled from the big house as part of a refurbishment.