Open fire - fire place and firebox help

[TNP]

Hi

I’m looking for any help / experience in restoring the firebox of an 1890s open fire.

We’ve had the chimney swept and checked and know that is sound. It’s lined properly and we’ve had the cap on the top of the chimney replaced as recommended.

We have realised after a year of burning, that the fire cement on the walls inside the firebox was absolutely past it. Half of it has just fallen off. I’ve tried to get a specialist to come and look but no joy. I reckon I could do the work myself but I want to make sure anything I do is done properly.

Can anyone here offer advice on the best steps to repair?

The image is one side and a big of the back the other side is the same. This cement is a a couple of inches thick on the back.

Thanks!

 

[Stevers]

That's what's known as a fireback and it's a vitreous clay product. When I briefly worked in a builders' merchant in the 80s we used to sell fireclay in plastic tubs - allegedly used to repair this sort of thing. Given that clay in its plastic form shrinks by 10% to 15% when dried/fired, I always wondered how successful such repairs could be. Perhaps it didn't work because I can't find anyone who sells it now. Pizza ovens seem to be a big consumer of fireclay, and a gritty pizza oven mix might be something to try.

[Edit] It was called 'fire cement' back in the day, and is still available:
https://www.everbuild.co.uk/products/plumbing-and-heating-supplies/fire,-stove-and-flue-cements-and-mortars/xl-fire-cement/ld-xl-fire-cement/p38992

 

[TNP]

Amazing. Thank you so much! So I can just take off the old and replace with new to protect the brick?

I’m willing to try! Although I have wondered the same about the drying

 

[Stevers]

Being only one step removed from 'dirt', at least it's not an expensive product. I would remove any failed previous repairs, clean/hoover any dust and dirt out of gaps, wet down and fill, following the manufacturers destructions carefully. Having sold a few tubs of this, I am interested in how you get on!

 

[Toby Newell]

FYI, not to worry you, but old fireclay and fire bricks at one point frequently contained large amounts of asbestos. When dealing with this type of stuff there's no need to get the E.T. containment team in, just obviously wear a mask and take sensible precautions.

 

[TNP]

My optimism is waning but I’ll give it the old college try! Hadn’t thought about asbestos, thanks for the advice. Gloves, mask and secure disposal it is!

 

[a twig]

Random idea which someone will probably tell me is a terrible one - get some of the fire bricks "like wot is used in woodburners" - for e.g. - I'm pretty sure you can buy it in small regular "sheets" from suppliers so you can make your own. Remove the entire existing back, cut the firebrick sheet into appropriately sized bricks and fit them using the fire cement to make a new back? If you wanted it to look more traditional you could then skim over it with the cement to make it all look uniform, you have less of a mass of new, gloopy stuff, so perhaps mitigating chances of cracking?

Might be difficult given its a fairly complex shape. Maybe give your way a go first

 

[Toby Newell]

I have two small bits of asbestos in my bedroom. Lining two old electrical sockets. I decided to bury them rather than disturb them. Just be sensible, it isn't cyanide or hydrofluoric acid, both of which I have handled.

Simply wear gloves, a tight fitting FP2 mask (I use 3M) try to remove in large chunks, double bag in rubble sacks and zip tie the tops. These are things I do as a matter of course suspected asbestos or not.

An extra precaution is to run a high quality vacuum (I have 4 Festool extractors) and dispose of the dust bag in a zip tie sealed refuse sack. Also put your clothes into a rubbish bag after use and wash the seperately.

I find carpet detritus to be a class H hazard, gives me terrible ashthma, so afterwards I vacuum all surrounding surfaces and all horizontal surfaces in the room. I do this regularly so for me suspected asbestos wouldn't be any different.

The only issue I would say is the quality of vacuum. I have always used dedicated dust extractors for the last 25 years, these have much better filters, if you have an old crappy domestic vacuum, now might be a good excuse to upgrade. I can recommend the Festool Midi, although the CT15 or CT25 are cheaper.

 

[Toby Newell]

Tbh the asbestos guys will come in a full body suit with a full face respirator, and their vacuum with have an H sticker on it, but basically they will be doing exactly as I said, possibly they will vacuum less. Mostly overkill unless you have tons of confirmed blue or brown. The poor 911 responders were covered head to toe in layers of it and the dust was a thick fog.

Abestos was used everywhere in the past, in many ceramic products and glues, including bitumen.

 

[ThornhillMike]

I have two small bits of asbestos in my bedroom. Lining two old electrical sockets. I decided to bury them rather than disturb them. Just be sensible, it isn't cyanide or hydrofluoric acid, both of which I have handled.

Simply wear gloves, a tight fitting FP2 mask (I use 3M) try to remove in large chunks, double bag in rubble sacks and zip tie the tops. These are things I do as a matter of course suspected asbestos or not.

An extra precaution is to run a high quality vacuum (I have 4 Festool extractors) and dispose of the dust bag in a zip tie sealed refuse sack. Also put your clothes into a rubbish bag after use and wash the seperately.

I find carpet detritus to be a class H hazard, gives me terrible ashthma, so afterwards I vacuum all surrounding surfaces and all horizontal surfaces in the room. I do this regularly so for me suspected asbestos wouldn't be any different.

The only issue I would say is the quality of vacuum. I have always used dedicated dust extractors for the last 25 years, these have much better filters, if you have an old crappy domestic vacuum, now might be a good excuse to upgrade. I can recommend the Festool Midi, although the CT15 or CT25 are cheaper.

Toby; specific question if I may. How seriously should one take the L/M/H rating of the Festools. I need an extractor and am happy to take your recommendation, but do you really have to buy a Medium rated model for say wood dust? Thanks in advance for the advice (hopefully!)

 

[Toby Newell]

WHat are you sanding / vacuuming mostly? General dust? Wood? Or plaster / masonry?

 

[ThornhillMike]

WHat are you sanding / vacuuming mostly? General dust? Wood? Or plaster / masonry?

Sanding wood and chiselling/drilling plaster (mostly lime, but some gypsum). I usually wear a full face mask for the dirtiest work so don't know if that reduces the emphasis on the extractor. Happy to upgrade the model I buy but also would rather keep £200/£300 in met pocket if I can!

 

[Toby Newell]

lol that doesnt help. I amabout to launch Newell's Ultimate Tool Guide TM, a series of articles (starting with power tools) shortly.

Basically L extractors are good for everything and work just as well if not better than M extractors if you are not working with plaster dust. So for wood and general cleaning, including industrial type heavy cleaning, eg dust / rubble below floorboards its L class.

Plaster, cement and masonry dust is so fine it clogs the filter sacks, so you need an M class, these can be used without a closed filterbag and so dust is open to filter, which clogs instantly! However... M class have automatic filter vibrators / shakers that clean them.

So if it's mainly super fine plaster an M class might be better. Dont get the Metabo or Mafell, get the Bosch or better still the Starmix.

The Starmix M class might be better than the Festool (worse ergonomics, possibly more efficient) I think the Starmix was designed from the ground up as an M class, whereas Festool who invented the L class, have simply upgraded their L class.

If I ever need an M class I might even go for the Starmix and I have four Festool M class!

Bosch, Mafel and Metabo (Trend, Fein etc) all get others to make their extractors. (Mafell is a Metabo clone) Festool and Starmix make their own and have been for decades.

 

[Toby Newell]

Sanding wood and chiselling/drilling plaster (mostly lime, but some gypsum). I usually wear a full face mask for the dirtiest work so don't know if that reduces the emphasis on the extractor. Happy to upgrade the model I buy but also would rather keep £200/£300 in met pocket if I can!

And basically if you are sanding anything or creating any dust and you don't use an extractor you are an animal, if you are professional or simply dumb if you are an end user

My Festool Midi 2 and CTL36, next to my 3M FP2.

Tonight I will pick up my CTL26 as well and my extra hoses for my table saw as I am ripping 4.6m long boards.

I use a Y splitter and two hoses on the table saw, another extractor for my mitre saw, then a third one for sanding / planing / cleaning etc.

Saves me having to waste time swapping hoses.

 

[Toby Newell]

Coincidentally my poor client has employed many cowboys. Some of whom sanded the lead paint off his Georgian windows. He spent thousands getting specialists in removing the thin layer of lead from around his house.

 

[ThornhillMike]

lol that doesnt help. I amabout to launch Newell's Ultimate Tool Guide TM, a series of articles (starting with power tools) shortly.

Basically L extractors are good for everything and work just as well if not better than M extractors if you are not working with plaster dust. So for wood and general cleaning, including industrial type heavy cleaning, eg dust / rubble below floorboards its L class.

Plaster, cement and masonry dust is so fine it clogs the filter sacks, so you need an M class, these can be used without a closed filterbag and so dust is open to filter, which clogs instantly! However... M class have automatic filter vibrators / shakers that clean them.

So if it's mainly super fine plaster an M class might be better. Dont get the Metabo or Mafell, get the Bosch or better still the Starmix.

The Starmix M class might be better than the Festool (worse ergonomics, possibly more efficient) I think the Starmix was designed from the ground up as an M class, whereas Festool who invented the L class, have simply upgraded their L class.

If I ever need an M class I might even go for the Starmix and I have four Festool M class!

Bosch, Mafel and Metabo (Trend, Fein etc) all get others to make their extractors. (Mafell is a Metabo clone) Festool and Starmix make their own and have been for decades.

Thanks Toby, that's very helpful. Given the amount of work to be done in the house (6,000 sq ft) I think i'll go for an M Class.

 

[Toby Newell]

Its an investment in sanity.

If you keep a Festool, Starmix or Hilti long enough you can often resell them for nearly rhe same price you bought them for.

 

[Toby Newell]

^^^ there is a Festool Rotex150 in my ebay watchlist, currently bid at £235 with 72 watchers and 3 days to go. Its a 2007 model. You could buy one in 2007 for £300. It's quite possible it sells for £300.

 

[ThornhillMike]

^^^ there is a Festool Rotex150 in my ebay watchlist, currently bid at £235 with 72 watchers and 3 days to go. Its a 2007 model. You could buy one in 2007 for £300. It's quite possible it sells for £300.

Excellent! I'll come back in 15 years and sell you my Festool CTM Midi...

 

[Toby Newell]

Excellent! I'll come back in 15 years and sell you my Festool CTM Midi...

Oh dear you didn't did you?