Have I watched Grand Designs one too many times?

The joinery at the back of Feltwell Towers is pretty shabby - in particular some French Doors that really have had it, they are so badly rotted at their base that we dare not open them any more. They are cheap doors badly fitted and frankly are not worth trying to repair, especially as most of the double glazing units - the old, now unobtainable slimline type - have blown their seals.

So we were looking at what to replace them with when I had an idea.....

This is the back of Feltwell Towers (in summer!) - it's a semi so the left hand side is ours.



This is the section in question:-



It's the old scullery, and runs off the kitchen. It may look like an extension but most of it is original - the end section, to the right of the downpipe with the single door, is an extension and is our utility room. The original section of the scullery room is long and thin, currently in use as the kids playroom but our thoughts have turned as to what we do with it as they get older and have less toys.

Most of the wall has been rebuilt at some point, and it's not the best job. The section between the (obviously not original) french doors and the (also not original) window, where the trellis and kids' greenhouse is, has been rebuilt as a cavity wall for some reason.

We could just replace the french doors with new ones - they don't look out of place - and smarten the window and other door up. The doors open onto a patio which is elevated about 5' above the garden, so quite nice views down to the garden. The patio is also very shabby at the moment but will eventually get replaced.

But, I have seen sliding folding door systems on the telly - like this:-

http://www.foldingdoors2u.co.uk/timber-bifold-doors/

And, the thought occured to us, we could replace the whole section from the left hand side of the current french doors to the right hand side of the window with one of these - and end up with a 12' long glass wall that would fold out almost completely in 3 or 4 sections onto the garden in summer, and give nice views for a sitting room when closed in winter. The cental wall section blocks out most of the view at the moment, you don't see much through the french doors.

As far as "original fabric" goes - there isn't any really, it's all been knocked about and we have no idea what was there originally (the neighbours side has also been re-built).

So - what do you think? Hopelessly modern and out-of-place on an old house? Plain naff? Or something that could look really good and give a new use to the room, rather like having a conservatory but with a solid roof? Honest opinions please!

Well - I, for one, think it's an absolutely splendid idea and I'm green with envy.

Our son is living in a house that's a smaller version of the one he rents out, and they've got sliding glass doors across virtually the whole of the back extension - it's wonderful, and I only wish we'd done the same when we were 'doing' his own house.

Beautiful, and it would open up all the back of your house. Where would the folded section be when it is open?

Feltwell said:

The original section of the scullery room is long and thin, currently in use as the kids playroom but our thoughts have turned as to what we do with it as they get older and have less toys.

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Aaah, the innocence! Has no-one told you that they occupy MORE space as they grow up? When our two were teenagers they would each fill a three seat settee, watching TV or playing some game for hours...

I think your idea is very good, if it's feasible (lintel?) and affordable.

Matthew
http://houseintheenchantedforest.blogspot.com/

Thank you all for your comments so far.

Moo, interesting to hear that your son is living with one of these door arrangements - I presume he's not found any downside? Don't be too green, if we go for this then I think it will be the driver for me to patch up the existing doors to eek a few more years out of them whilst we save up to do this, and many many other jobs! I don't see the point in spending around £1000 on a new set of french doors to then take them out in a few years time - hence the seeking of some opinions now, as we're genuinely not sure.

Schoolmarm, not sure where the doors would fold back to. We wouldn't need a "traffic door" as we have a seperate back door for day-to-day access to the garden, so that means that all the sections could fold back on one side. If they fold externally to the left (as you look from outside) then it gives the best unobstructed view of the garden but the sections fold in front of the kitchen window. On the right and the kitchen window is not obstructed, but the view is, a little at least. Folding them internally on the left is not an option, it would block the doorway, but on the right it would just be against the end wall - so leaving the kitchen window and the view unobstructed, but taking up space inside and leaving a wall that you couldn't have furniture near or on. Pros and cons to all of them, but it's not impossible.

Matthew, a steel would definitely be required to support the roof. I'd need the slimmest depth possible as the headroom is already a little tight on the french doors. I think on this occasion I would pay for a structural engineer to calculate one for me - the BCO would want to see calcs anyway, and I'm far too rusty from my engineering days to do them myself. I'm hoping the space the teenagers will occupy will be more up in their bedrooms - although I can see that a sofa and TV in this room would quickly lead to a takeover!

As it's the back of the house, I think you get away with this kind of modernity far more than if it were visible from the front.

The current arrangement is bitty and a bit peculiar looking, and although these glass folding doors aren't to my taste to be honest, I can see the appeal of your idea.

JoceAndChris said:

As it's the back of the house, I think you get away with this kind of modernity far more than if it were visible from the front.

The current arrangement is bitty and a bit peculiar looking

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I agree. Why on earth they decided to fit an extra door when they extended to build the utility room I'll never know - we have 3 doors onto the back garden now, all quite close to each other! If what was there at present (even if tatty) looked good then we wouldn't be looking at this option. As it is, I think what's there right now can be made to look better but will always look a bit of a hotch-potch.

A job for the future! If we do go for it then I may be inclined to go for aluminium, powder coated matt or satin black, for the door system - something unashamedly modern but that would sit OK alongside the other fenestration and tie in with the black rainwater goods (which will be replaced by cast iron at some point, that's the only bit of plastic on the house). I think hardwood may look like it's trying to fit in a bit too much - the profile of aluminium should be very slim. Whatever you do it will look modern, as will the handles etc, so may as well make it unapologetically modern but not sticking out like gloss white or the dreaded chunky UPVC profiles would. An aluminium system would also require less maintenance.

It sounds great Feltwell - and certainly in keeping with the ethos of SPAB and conservation. My own ethos is more "imaginative recreation of the past", which is dreadfully wrong in many ways - but each to their own. For example, I'd rather have a reproduction wrought iron thingy or an orangerie on the end of the house than a useful double glazed conservatory.
One smooth access point will be much more visually soothing than all those bits and pieces- go for it! Do you need PP for such a change?

JoceAndChris said:

which is dreadfully wrong in many ways

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Not really - no rights or wrongs, just opinions, especially when it comes to decoration and finishing which appears to be your favourite bit!

PP isn't required, and the house isn't listed, but I will need Building Control to be involved. It will be a few years away yet anyway - for now I need to patch up those french doors to last a little longer, I was going to change them this year but I have rather taken a fancy to this idea of sliding & folding doors. A bit of vision is required as currently they would give you a view of a tatty, poorly constructed patio and an overgrown rockery!

That room is by far the most abused part of this house and needs quite a bit of work, what has been done to it is of poor quality. For example, the quarry tiles in there appear to be original - they certainly match the kitchen - but they've been re-laid very badly in a cement bedding at some point and are very uneven.

Our workload never ends. Good luck.

I think it's a good idea. Which way does that wall face? - solar gain and fading are worth bearing in mind, as is the quality of the glazing units and type(s) of glass you use.

I suspect that the steel may be if not a problem then a reasonable consideration - we removed some sections of wall between the new kitchen and vinery and needed a 6m span which only cost £600 + fitting but did require some planning and calcs - mind you we had an upper storey to support.
I would hope that a folding door company be able to provide a solution that included the structural support & plans for building control too unless you were planning on organising the trades yourself.

If I were you I would try and get some all inclusive quotes sooner rather than later -
If you want ali' you could try Apropos - we got them to quote for our vinery reconstruction - we then decided to attempt repair before we discovered it was impractical. They seemed expensive but after the fact their quote wasn't unreasonable compared to what we ended up spending. Their technical team were very helpful and provided us with CAD drawings based on our rough plans which helped to visualise everything.
http://www.apropos-conservatories.com/bifoldingdoors

If you have the time and inclination then you could also mock it up reasonably quickly in Google Sketchup (free) that helped us a lot too.

The wall faces south - it they're not too horrifically expensive then the DG units that have venetian blinds built into them would be the best option, plus a solar reflect type of glass. If they are horribly expensive, which I suspect they will be, then solar reflect glass plus internal blinds will be a must I think. That wall gets the full sun in the morning, carrying on up until about 2 p.m. when it's shaded by the main part of the house.

The single doorway to the utility room we'd probably brick up - it isn't used and has a freezer in front of it anyway - and put a small skylight in to get some natural light in there.

What dimension top to bottom did your steel end up being? I presume it's the normal "I" beam type. I'm hoping we could get away with something fairly slim - it will about a 3.6m gap, but it does have to support the weight of the most of the roof on our side (the apex being the dividing line with next door). I reckoned on £1000 for a steel with fitting as a guesstimate. Most of the folding door company websites I've looked at are "darn sarf" and don't fit this far up, but having had a look at a video DIY fitting guide on one it doesn't look that difficult to fit yourself.

Thanks for the suggestion of Apropos.

Feltwell said:

What dimension top to bottom did your steel end up being?

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The steel is about a foot deep IIRC - it's now hidden behind bricks and plasterboard. It had to form a T shape with another beam to support part of the rest of the house which was dealing with the loss of a chimney that had no top but still held up the floor above.

With the glazing if you choose solar control coatings you will lose any positive solar gain in the spring and autumn and you won't be able to grow any plants behind it either - in case that matters to you. It will continue to lose heat as glass does all year around. We ended up not using solar control in our west facing vinery for that reason. It does get very warm in the summer but as it's shaded from early afternoon it's perfectly usable most of the time - it is also lovely to get a warm burst on a sunny autumnal day when its too cold to sit outside. Mainly it matters that we don't leave things in there that will sun bleach between now and September.

Pilkington K glass has a hard coating that reflects infrared light back into the room (low emissivity glass or low e) making it less leaky for your precious heat.
You can also get soft coated glass which does the same thing but is more effective at reflecting heat - the downside is it's harder to manufacture so it costs maginally more - the glazing companies I used spluttered a bit about it, but in thermal performance it should already have paid for itself. We used Planitherm by Saint Gobain. You will probably have to use low e to meet building regs anyway, I would suggest the fractionally more expensive glass is worth it, but the door manufacturer may not offer a choice.

Feltwell said:

Hopelessly modern and out-of-place on an old house? Plain naff? Or something that could look really good and give a new use to the room, rather like having a conservatory but with a solid roof? Honest opinions please!

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No, no and definitely yes. Conservatories are great, but they suffer very much from the glass roof in hot weather. The house we moved into 18 months ago has one, and in sunny weather it's like an oven, when the doors are closed. I'm seriously considering ways to shade it.

But when we can sit in there with the double doors open, it's really lovely. Even in winter there's something very comforting about sitting almost in the garden, but where the weather can't get you!

I think it's a great idea, and doesn't appear to present any insuperable technical difficulties. The new lintel only has to support the roof, so it shouldn't be any big deal.

What? You haven't started the job yet? I'll lend you my sledgehammer... :wink:

Penners said:

Conservatories are great, but they suffer very much from the glass roof in hot weather.

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That's what I don't like about conservatories - the "greenhouse effect". I am very much a shade worshipper and dislike hot weather (polar opposite to Mrs F of course....) - unless there is a nice cool breeze! I'd hope that with this having the solid roof we'd get the "almost being outside" feeling as with a conservatory, but without so much of the heat problem.

Penners, I remember a few years ago a work colleague spent quite a bit getting bespoke conservatory blinds made that had a reflective coating on the back - they did help cool their conservatory a lot.

Well, you've all persuaded me that I haven't got fanciful notions from watching Kevin too many times and that it is a good idea! It shall join the list of "things to do when we've got enough time / money" - I'll just aim to get it done before I retire eh? Ironically we already call it the "sun room", only because that's what the estate agent called it and we've never thought of a better name - clearly he didn't quite know what it would get used for either!

Now, to work out how to cut the bottom off those old doors and joint in some new sections, ignore the blown DG units and try and eek a few more years out of them.........

But in the meantime, more glamourous jobs to do - I've spent half the day digging God knows how much muck and old lime mortar (from torching) out of a previously sealed off roof void, where sparrows had clearly been getting in to nest for 100 years or so. What a lovely job - I looked like a coal miner when I came out!

Feltwell said:

Penners, I remember a few years ago a work colleague spent quite a bit getting bespoke conservatory blinds made that had a reflective coating on the back - they did help cool their conservatory a lot.

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Thanks for that tip, Feltwell. Were your colleague's blinds fitted inside or outside the roof? I've always been a bit sceptical of inside blinds. OK, they shade you from the direct sunlight, but they don't stop the heat actually getting through the glass roof. So it can still build up. Or do you think I've misunderstood something?

Feltwell said:

Now, to work out how to cut the bottom off those old doors and joint in some new sections, ignore the blown DG units and try and eek a few more years out of them.........

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Have you got a handheld circular saw? That's the best tool for this job. It's impossible to manage a door on the table of a floorstanding saw (unless you have one with a huge rolling table). And a jigsaw will wander all over the place.

Make sure that the blade of your circular saw is set at exactly 90 deg. to the platen. Firmly clamp (or temporarily screw) a piece of scrap wood against both edges of the door in line with your cut, so that the saw runs straight on and off the door through the scrap. This will help to prevent breakout. Clamp a guide batten across the door, for the edge of your circular saw platen to run against (don't trust the extension arm fence running along the bottom edge of the door, particularly if that edge is a bit rotten). Nice sharp sawblade.

Prepare your piece for planting on a wee bit thicker than the door, so that you can sand or plane it off flush afterwards. Screw and glue (I would use a PU glue such as Gorilla Glue to avoid failure due to dampness) the new bottom piece on, then plane/sand off flush.

Robert's yer mum's brother.

Penners said:

Were your colleague's blinds fitted inside or outside the roof? I've always been a bit sceptical of inside blinds. OK, they shade you from the direct sunlight, but they don't stop the heat actually getting through the glass roof. So it can still build up. Or do you think I've misunderstood something?

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No, I agree with you - but I think they were inside. I guess they reflect the heat back onto the glass? Still sounds like they would have a very limited effect. However, my colleague reckoned they made all the difference. I think I'd seek some first-hand opinions before splashing out.

Ta for the door tips - I would use a circular saw. Glad I'm not the only one who can't get a decent straight line with a jigsaw! There's a lot to come off those doors to get all the rot out (the bottom rails are badly split) so I may need to dowel the new piece into the old rather than screw. I'll be cutting straight across the bottom of the stiles so those sections will end up with the grain running t'other way - not sure what if any difference that will make. It is only a "make do and mend" job rather than a restoration, so I guess it will probably do.

I shouldn't worry about the grain-run in your patched job, particularly if it's only for a temporary period. I bet nobody will even notice.

Screwing on the planted pieces is always desirable, if there's any way that you can manage it. The "pull" of screws is good for an effective glue joint. If you're using PU glue (which I would recommend), it also helps to prevent the slight foaming of the glue from pushing the joint apart a bit. Can you perhaps drill some deep countersinks and use a long screwdriver bit?

But if that's really impossible and you have to resort to dowels, do try to rig up some way of cramping the joint while the glue is curing. Obviously this will be difficult with a door - even the longest sash cramps won't stretch its entire length. So a wedge technique might serve instead.

That is a neat trick. <posts idea into things to remember box>

Feltwell said:

No, I agree with you - but I think they were inside. I guess they reflect the heat back onto the glass? Still sounds like they would have a very limited effect. However, my colleague reckoned they made all the difference. I think I'd seek some first-hand opinions before splashing out.

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If the reflective blind is inside and you have low-e glass then the UV light will get through the glass and be reflected back. As the low-e coating reflects infra red and allows UV through then I'm guessing it should be quite effective.
If you used conventional fabric blinds I would imagine that quite a lot of the UV would be converted into heat/infra red before its reflected and heat build up would be greater.
In either case I would expect that to work better than nothing.

Another alternative would be the awning type arrangement outside but it might look a bit odd - not sure about that.

Another 'green building' approach is to put fixed horizontal slat shading out side large glass walls - that allows low morning/evening and winter sun directly into the room but shades the midday sun in the summer. Again not sure how good that would look but an arbour achieves a similar thing (the greenery shades the room in summer and dies back in winter).

Thinking on it I can't see how the blinds within double glazing can possibly work with a sealed, gas filled unit? I've only ever seen them on internal office partitions.

Finally in our massive glass roofed room we added thermostatically controlled motorised roof lights which open and close according to the ambient temp and a rain sensor. These don't stop the room from warming up a bit more than one might desire but they do have the effect of taking the heat out at a predefined point and as they're automatic they work when we're out. They sometimes open around 9am in the summer when we're still lazing in bed when the temp in there hits 26C.